My uncle and aunt have been visiting Australia and New Zealand for the past 2 weeks. Mamu (meaning maternal uncle, as we "desis" � as Indian expats call themselves - call him) works in something to do with rocket science, whilst Mrs. Mamu used to head a school somewhere in LA. They had heard so much about the peace and quiet in Sydney, the friendly people and the beautiful beaches.

They, of course, had no idea about the many undercurrents of cultural nonsense going on in Sydney. They hadn't heard of "Lebbo" gangs with bad attitudes and even worse haircuts behaving like a bunch of "Paki" kids from Manchester. They also didn't realize that some of the friendly laid-back Aussies could get quite violent when filled with enough alcohol, speed and marijuana.

Hence, when their arrival in Sydney coincided with news reports of SMS Text messages and e-mails buzzing around in the air and cyberspace calling on white "surfies" to "reclaim our beach", they believed us when we dismissed the reports as exaggeration. We went ahead and booked holidays in New Zealand and the Gold Coast, oblivious to the storm we would be leaving behind across the other side of Tasman Sea.

We left Sydney airport on Monday 12 December 2005. At 5am we had checked into the airport. At 6pm, whilst waiting for immigration to open, we saw a group of staff wearing customs and security uniforms crowded around a TV screen.

There, on the screen, were scenes that looked like something out of an LA riot. But this wasn't LA. This was the familiar streets and footpaths of my favourite beach in Cronulla on the southern tip of the Sydney metropolitan area.

Cronulla? I always remembered this area as a bastion of small "l" liberalism. During my 10 years of stacking branches for the conservative wing of the Liberal Party, I always wrote Cronulla and the "deep south" off as hard-core "wet" [progressive] territory (if the wets ever could have a hard-core).

But politicians and members of political parties often live in their own world, divorced from reality on the ground. And many small "l" liberals could never understand why so many young people from Muslim backgrounds used to complain about those "blasted Lebbos" who had no respect for women and even less respect for themselves.

Last year, Sydney was beset with controversy over the trial and conviction of a number of young Australian men of Lebanese background accused of gang-raping Anglo-Australian women. The prosecution had released allegations that the boys had told their victims they were being targeted because they were "White" and "Australian". The boys claimed they would be sexually assaulting the girls "Leb-style".

The usual array of infantile pseudo-conservative columnists came out with all sorts of theories about how Muslim culture teaches boys to gang-rape White women (where that leaves Bosnian and Albanian migrants, only Allah knows).

One columnist (I am informed she holds a PhD in law) even went to the extent of misquoting works by European sociologists. She used to claim that migrant Muslim cultures regard gang-rape as a cultural right of passage. The newspaper she wrote for (owned by a certain American citizen) continues to publish her work.

All my "desis" elders used to sit back and blame "vo qambukht Lebnaaniya" (those damned Lebanese) for ruining it for us good guys. After all, we Indo-Paks considered ourselves such clean-skins, educated and professional people who were moderate in our religiosity and seemed to fit in quite well.

Of course, our fa�ade was soon shattered when three Pakistani brothers were tried and convicted for the gang-rape of some girls. The lawyer for one of the boys even claimed in submissions that sexual assault was regarded as normal in Pakistani culture, and asked the judge to take this fact into account when sentencing the boys! The lawyer would only have made such submissions under instructions from his client.

Mr. & Mrs. Mamu were watching and listening carefully to the events and the reactions of "desi" people around them. Mamu came to one simple conclusion � these dimwit ethnic parents and leaders are living in a state of denial.

I couldn't help but agree with him. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize it.

The most hilarious spectacle was to see "community leaders" � an assorted array of non-English speaking imams and organizational heads having talks amongst themselves. What were they talking about? These are the same people who never bothered learning English. Few have tried to understand what it's like growing up in Australia as a human pendulum, forever swinging between competing cultural and religious expectations.

Many of these leaders themselves have been responsible for some of the worst forms of racism in Australia. What do mean? When a Lebanese Muslim girl wants to marry a Pakistani or Bosnian Muslim boy, her parents stop him. A non-Lebanese person cannot become a member of the association responsible for managing Sydney's main mosque � the Imam Ali ben Abi Taleb Mosque in Lakemba.

If I hold anyone responsible for events such as the Cronulla riots, it is the so-called ethno-religious leaders who refuse to allow young people to take control and who thereby force us to the margins. I am sick and tired of being a marginal Australian. Yet that is exactly what happens when the person who speaks on my behalf in media and to governments speaks English with a thick accent and expressed ideas that make me cringe.

And when they say silly things, it is mainstream Muslims who live and interact with the rest of Australia who must bear the brunt of what is (in my opinion, at least) often natural resentment.

These same leaders complain about Australian racism, rarely asking themselves what would have happened if this was not Cronulla but Dhaka or Lahore and if the perpetrators weren't Lebanese but Hindus or Catholics.

Anyway, I don't wish to spoil my New Zealand holiday. These lines were typed in an internet caf� on the main street of Hamilton. Mr. & Mrs. Mamu are sitting in their motel room. I'd better go and join them.

"If I hold anyone responsible for events such as the Cronulla riots, it is the so-called ethno-religious leaders who refuse to allow young people to take control and who thereby force us to the margins. I am sick and tired of being a marginal Australian. Yet that is exactly what happens when the person who speaks on my behalf in media and to governments speaks English with a thick accent and expressed ideas that make me cringe."

I just find this statment ridiculous and outrageous in every way.

They refuse to allow young people to take control? Isn't that rather passive and pathetic - why don't you ask for, demand, lobby for control?

Why are you a marginal Austrailian? Is it because you have serious self-esteem issues? If so, you'll never be a 'real' Australian.

Because someone doesn't speak English with a clear accent and says things you disapprove of - that automatically translates to you and your religion? That is a massive generalization and stereotyping that usually comes from fools or bigots but not an individual Muslim. That is just nonsense.

The riots in Australia were sparked by white hooligans and racists. Some members of the Muslim community seem to have escalated it and made it worse.

The Muslim community has problems in Australia ranging from cultural/religious disconnect to the usual problems of immigrant youth in a new country. I will not accept the mistakes/crimes/bad behaviour/ignorance/bad English of some Muslims as a reason to engage in self-loathing and self-debasement. I detest that with a passion.

Maybe Irfan identifies closely with the racist-hooligans, he sure speaks their language. If he was here in the United States, he'd be lobying for English Only - and joining up with the anti-Spanish/multi-lingual racists here.

>>Yet that is exactly what happens when the person who speaks on my behalf in media and to governments speaks English with a thick accent and expressed ideas that make me cringe.

Here, here, Irf! We only let ourselves continue to be percieved as "foreign" and our religion as "foreign" NOT because of our skin color or origins, but squarely based on how many Muslims sound "foreign" and say / do things in public that only reinforces that stereotype. Asking people to be nice to us or having slick media campaigns will never work if they don't percieve as an authentic part of the social fabric. Its about time statements like this keep making it into print; maybe things will change soon for the best interests of the us born in these countries! Time to turn things over to Muslims born or raised in the West...

As for the hooligans: no excuse; must prosecute. But, typically people who act on ideas are usually a small percentage of the population who actually beleive itm but for one reason or another aren't willinf to act on it; if *thousands* rampaged like this, it tells me there's ALOT of people who aren't happy with immigration. Failing to address this is a recipe for more pain and hurt.

Huh OmarG????? - now other people's perception of how Muslims ought to be or behave is the benchmark that we need to reach in order to be accepted as 'American' or 'Austrailian'????

And we 'continue to let ourselves be perceieved as foreign'? How is it WE do that? As if Muslims were some monolith! As if Muslims had the power to influence or control each and every individual's perceptions!

One is a citizen of a country and not foreign or a foriegner if one has entered the country legally and is an upstanding and responsible member of the community. THEN, NO ONE CAN LABEL YOU AS FOREIGN OR PERCEIVE YOU AS FOREIGN. That is simply prejudiced BS and bias, especially when the countries in question are immigrant based countries like the US/Australia or Canada etc.

>>As if Muslims had the power to influence or control each and every individual's perceptions!

I don't agree; you seem as if you believe that Muslims are like a ship on a stormy sea buffeted around by uncontrollable forces. I believe that, to the contrary, with a strong rudder and some cultural unity, we *can* decide how we will fit into the countries we were born in / grew up in / immigrated to and what we want to do as a community: contibute to our countries or work towards universal Islamic unity (which is what many are trying to do but are not succeeding, thus wasting valuable efforts and resources which do nothing to safely and Islamically fit us in.)

>THEN, NO ONE CAN LABEL YOU AS FOREIGN OR PERCEIVE YOU AS FOREIGN.

That is a legal view, one which almost completely ignores the social reality. What people see in speech and deeds far, far outweighs what is written on my passport or even birth certificate. Most immigrant groups in US history (I'm not too familiar with Canada) were resented when they stood out as different. Italians were massively discriminated against on both the basis of being "swarthy" and by my ancestor's Catholic religion and we had intense rivalries with the Irish. Today, that is an old story and an obsolete mode of seeing each other. Things my ancestors did which I think contributed:

* Didn't ask for special privelages based on ethnicity or religion,
* Didn't elevate themselves as if they were better than everyone else,
* Insisted on speaking only English, since the only way to get ahead and be accepted (which leads to getting ahead and the quiet life),
* Joined the police to combat the mafia on the inside.

See, we had big image problems because of the mafia; even today its a sore point to see stuff like the Soprano's on TV because it just reinforces that poor image, as outdated as it has become. But, Italians knew they were scum and although most were too sheepish to go up against them, slowly there were men of action who went up against them. Most of the successful cops who helped take down the mafia were Italians. Do you see the parallel here with Muslims of today?

"We only let ourselves continue to be percieved as "foreign" and our religion as "foreign" NOT because of our skin color or origins, but squarely based on how many Muslims sound "foreign" and say / do things in public that only reinforces that stereotype."

So apparently EACH and EVERY one of us has to not sound foreign and not reinforce stereotypes created and nutured in other ppl's ignorant minds. And that's how we 'fit' in??????????????

"I don't agree; you seem as if you believe that Muslims are like a ship on a stormy sea buffeted around by uncontrollable forces."

No I don't believe that. I stated that other people's ignorant perceptions or biases do not determine whether I'm a citizen or whether I fit in. I don't pay any attention if you believe that I don't belong because of hijab/beard/religion/accent etc. And what's worse is when Muslims claim we should change those things because they are in the way of us being accepted. WRONG. It's the other people not you!

"That is a legal view, one which almost completely ignores the social reality. What people see in speech and deeds far, far outweighs what is written on my passport or even birth certificate. "

Indeed! If you perceive me as foreign because I speak poor English/have different skin colour or some members of my community say outlandish things! Then you have a diseased and prejudiced heart. Muslims can't control that and can do nothing to help you break out of your ignorance and patheticness.

"* Didn't ask for special privelages based on ethnicity or religion,
* Didn't elevate themselves as if they were better than everyone else,
* Insisted on speaking only English, since the only way to get ahead and be accepted (which leads to getting ahead and the quiet life),
* Joined the police to combat the mafia on the inside."

You are faulting Muslims for exhibiting these characteristics? I don't get it. Don't know how we elevate ourselves or how speaking our native languages at home threatens you?

.

CONT'D

"Most immigrant groups in US history (I'm not too familiar with Canada) were resented when they stood out as different. Italians were massively discriminated against on both the basis of being "swarthy" and by my ancestor's Catholic religion and we had intense rivalries with the Irish. Today, that is an old story and an obsolete mode of seeing each other"

Correct and people were like that simply because they were racists back then - nothing your ancestors did made much difference back then. What made the difference is people's perceptions changed and they became less IGNORANT. Unfortunately, many are still ignorant about Islam and Muslims today

Also, whither the author of this article?

>>Unfortunately, many are still ignorant about Islam and Muslims today

And that's thier fault or the fault of us Muslims!? To us, Islam is special, but others have absolutely no reason at all to even want to know about Islam or Muslims unless:
* They personally know a Muslim and want to understand him/her,
* They feel threatened by Islam and Muslims because of the extremely *public* acts of violence some Muslims commit.

People who can't or won't communicate with Americans in a fluent way won't be very effective in point #1. Now, don't think I'm directing this to you personally, I'm not. I'm looking at the big picture. And I can tell you for sure that Italians weren't simply accepted with us doing nothing to fit in. Indeed, people became less ignorant about Italians because Italians intermarried, were very large in numbers and produced many prominent Americans who put America first, even when America fought in Italy in WWII. Tell me truly that the Muslim communities in America feel its even necessary to do anything on America's behalf. I've seen tremendous social and cultural change over the past 15 years and its increasingly by people like me who grew up here and are deeply in tune with the culture and society and can very well relate to the general American populace. I'm not saying that immigrants shouldn't come; I am saying that they shouldn't expect to be in charge or to find absolute ready acceptance by us or Americans in general AND as a community, we should have well-established agreement that being American is desirable and put the people we live with first because we see ourselves as being from among them. I do; many immigrants do not.

OmarG:

">>Unfortunately, many are still ignorant about Islam and Muslims today

And that's thier fault or the fault of us Muslims!? To us, Islam is special, but others have absolutely no reason at all to even want to know about Islam or Muslims unless:
* They personally know a Muslim and want to understand him/her,
* They feel threatened by Islam and Muslims because of the extremely *public* acts of violence some Muslims commit."

Knowledge is a two-way street. I cannot educate a person who doesn't want to learn or want to be educated. It seems to me that you think knowledge of Islam and Muslims is to poured by Muslims into a willing and ready non=Muslim populace. That is not feasible or realistic. This doesn't mean that Muslims shouldn't be at the forefront trying to educate and build bridges. But that is information - for knowledge to be gained/transferred you must have someone willing to be educated and to learn and one who has an open mind.

You are right that those who can't communicate fluently are not the most effective at getting the message out. But fluency is not the most important thing - knowledge of Islam and Muslims is foremost to communicate to others followed by a degree of fluency. I objected to the author's statement of 'cringing' when faced with an accent - that is pathetic - my parents speak broken English - I don't cringe ; I rejoice because they are decent, good Muslims who have good characters, and not as many people on the planet are like this(an obviously biased view but not devoid of fact!)

"because Italians intermarried, were very large in numbers and produced many prominent Americans who put America first, even when America fought in Italy in WWII"

Is that all? Doesn't seem to me that they have done much except act as decent, law abiding human beings who after 100 years plus produced, inevitably, some prominent individuals. That is my prescription for Muslims too - be decent and law-abiding and things will work out. And in fact - Muslims by and large are like this. At some point prominent individuals will emerge as they inevitably will given time.

"Tell me truly that the Muslim communities in America feel its even necessary to do anything on America's behalf. "

What makes Muslims special it necessitates that they do something on America's behalf? Practicing Muslims are responsible, law-abiding, hard working citizens who pay their taxes, donate to their community and are kind to their nieghbours. What else do you want from them? What else can any reasonable person ask from another human being? If that type of person is not actively and positively contributing to the vitality and strength of America then who is?

"I am saying that they shouldn't expect to be in charge or to find absolute ready acceptance by us or Americans in general AND as a community"

Foolish statement OmarG. No immigrant Muslims EXPECTS to be in charge whatever that means. Let's remove the qualifier 'absolute' - not useful. I do expect to find ready acceptance from people who themselves were immigrants not long ago - and who themselves have stated the equality of humans in their constitution and who have invited me to come to their country legally. If I don't find ready acceptance - then they are ignorant/racist/stupid and liars since they have not lived upto their loudly proclaimed ideals as embodied by their constitution.

"we should have well-established agreement that being American is desirable and put the people we live with first because we see ourselves as being from among them. I do; many immigrants do not."

Being American is desirable - otherwise immigrant Muslims wouldn't have come to the country. As putting people we live with first - a Muslim is instructed to put Muslims first, then the community and nieghbourhood they are living with second. No ifs ands or buts about it. I love Canada and have lived here happily for 18 years - but if Canada declares war on Muslims I will have no choice but to fight against Canada. Simple as that.

In another post - you indicated that you have travelled extensively - if so you have not opened your eyes as much as you should have. The average Pakistani or Egyptian is much poorer than the least well-off American - thus I can understand immigrants helping their brethren back home. However, it's an either/or issue - it's a both/and. Muslims are contributiing members to BOTH their original community back 'home' AND the communities they are living in as shown above.

>>That is my prescription for Muslims too - be decent and law-abiding and things will work out.

I *really* hope so! But, I think you're seeing my statements directed to you as an individual, that you as one person should plead with people to see you a certain way. Absolutely not. I'm saying this applies to the Muslim community as a whole and especially to organizations who claim to represent us and should be doing so, but instead are actually trying to build a utopian Islamic life which I don't beleive is even Islamically authentic. Thus, this is a problem of scale: the individual level is one thing, but on the macro-level, the society as a whole or at least segments make certain assumptions based on superficial information such as seeing terrorists on the news. To me, there's 5% of Westerners who really love Islam, 95% who ahve no clue and 5% who are true bigots whom we will never convince. Our community organizations' actions can help prevent that 95% from becoming bigots. So far, they need improvements in thier performance which I say will come once they embrace the 2nd generations and converts, which they are very reluctant to do at this time.

>>What makes Muslims special it necessitates that they do something on America's behalf?

Because we benefit from its land, legal freedoms, education, *economy*, population for marriage partners, etc... Thus, if we are seen as only taking, people will resent us as would people in any country. But if we are SEEN as giving back, it accelerates people accepting Islam and Muslims as a valid part of the North American fabric. PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING!

>>but if Canada declares war on Muslims I will have no choice but to fight against Canada.

Bummer. How do you interpret "declaring war on Muslims"? You mean if they say "Islam must be eradicated" or do you mean a conflict over land, oil, etc... because I got news for you: Canada had troops in Somailia, Afghanistan and many other "Muslim" lands. My, my, whatever will you do?

I agree with OmarG. Islam shouldn't create an us and them divide. It should be able to seed in all communities without compromising a communities identity. Irfan is right. We expect acceptance from people and societies our "establishments" look down upon.

Besides .. Our religion is propogatory religion. It should bridge divides .. not create them.

>>That is my prescription for Muslims too - be decent and law-abiding and things will work out.<<

I've got a better idea, why not issue these same statements to neonazis running around beating up on people....I have no sympathy for drunks pretending to be the Hitler youth. I dont buy this line of thinking that I have to be polite, kind and courteous to someone comming at me with a baseball bat. I speak from experience, I almost got hit by a drunk driver, and in one instance had one attack me at a store. Funny thing is he was my patient a years later, after going into a alcohol induced coma.
These Aussie nazis need to be locked, period.

OmarG:

Again, reread my post before commenting.

">>What makes Muslims special it necessitates that they do something on America's behalf?

Because we benefit from its land, legal freedoms, education, *economy*, population for marriage partners, etc... Thus, if we are seen as only taking, people will resent us as would people in any country. But if we are SEEN as giving back, it accelerates people accepting Islam and Muslims as a valid part of the North American fabric. PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING!"

Practicing Muslims are responsible, law-abiding, hard working citizens who pay their taxes, donate to their community and are kind to their nieghbours. What else do you want from them? What else can any reasonable person ask from another human being? If that type of person is not actively and positively contributing to the vitality and strength of America then who is?

How is it you came to the conclusion that Muslims are only taking? Does that apply to other immigrant groups - are East Asians only taking from America - are Latinos only taking?


"But, I think you're seeing my statements directed to you as an individual, that you as one person should plead with people to see you a certain way. Absolutely not. I'm saying this applies to the Muslim community as a whole and especially to organizations who claim to represent us and should be doing so, but instead are actually trying to build a utopian Islamic life which I don't beleive is even Islamically authentic."

I don't believe you are directing it at me - but no community should have to continually answer for the bad behaviour of some individuals. Nor should we have to prove we are 'normal' and 'law-abiding'.
There is an Islamic utopian ideal - but since humans are imperfect they will never fully reach it - thus the continual striving that is required from us in Islam.

">>but if Canada declares war on Muslims I will have no choice but to fight against Canada.

Bummer. How do you interpret "declaring war on Muslims"? You mean if they say "Islam must be eradicated" or do you mean a conflict over land, oil, etc... because I got news for you: Canada had troops in Somailia, Afghanistan and many other "Muslim" lands. My, my, whatever will you do?"

Ahh! The minute I posted that I regretted it - because I knew that overly simplistic analogy would be taken out of context. Let me educate you on a few points - The deployment of multi-national troops to Somalia was not a war - it was a humanitarian mission - albeit with massive mistakes made. Afghansitan, when Canada went in, was a peace-keeping mission - at that point the Taliban was ousted and Mr Karzai was heading the gov't. So you are wrong on both counts. A real war on Muslims undertaken by a state would be extremely hard to define - but it would neccesarily start within the state. In a sense you would know it when you see it! The point remains that loyalty to Muslims/ummah comes before loyalty to any region/country or race and that applies to all - including Somalis/Arabs/Italian-Americans etc.

I've seen posters refer to the white man's 'burden' thing and anti-immigrant stance with regard to you - but I was reluctant to believe it. But these continual posts that demand of and single out Muslims for particular action or ethos(ie. give something back to America, show your loyalty, don't speak with accents) tends to confirm those accusations.

Ghulam,

"I agree with OmarG. Islam shouldn't create an us and them divide. It should be able to seed in all communities without compromising a communities identity. Irfan is right. ."

Read my first post Ghulam - that is definitely NOT what irfan is saying. Nor is OmarG saying those things. Your sentiment is absolutely correct though.

"We expect acceptance from people and societies our "establishments" look down upon"

Fascinating comparison of apples and oranges Ghulam. US/Canada/Austrailia etc invite immigrants to their countries - they loudly proclaim their committment to equality/their superiority in accepting and taking immigrants etc. And not with some justification. Thus, I hold them to a high standard - I will criticise these same countries if they then take action that contradicts those blandishments or if a gov't does not censor those involved in actions that contradict those blandishments. I don't know that our 'establishments' look down upon these societies at all - all would love to come to the West - including the most radical/long bearded Muslim.

DrM

You are completely rite! I was just commenting on OmarG's expectations of Muslims.

>>Mr Karzai was heading the gov't. So you are wrong on both counts.

Ok, just curious.

>>I don't know that our 'establishments' look down upon these societies at all

Well, then I suppose there's little use in trying to show you how some of us see problems in our communities. I'm very happy that you live in a perfect community and have not experienced the problems that I've mentioned...

OmarG:

I do see the problems in our communities. However, we differ on the solution.

My solution:
- That is my prescription for Muslims too - be decent and law-abiding and things will work out. And in fact - Muslims by and large are like this. At some point prominent individuals will emerge as they inevitably will given time.

- Educated Muslim leaders/activists should speak out about the religion in the PR battle

OmarG/Irfan solution(these are resulting from your quotes):

"when the person who speaks on my behalf in media and to governments speaks English with a thick accent and expressed ideas that make me cringe"

"We only let ourselves continue to be percieved as "foreign" and our religion as "foreign" NOT because of our skin color or origins, but squarely based on how many Muslims sound "foreign" and say / do things in public that only reinforces that stereotype"

Solution - Speak unaccented English and say things that are pleasing/conforming to Aussie/American society and all is well

"* Didn't ask for special privelages based on ethnicity or religion,
* Didn't elevate themselves as if they were better than everyone else,
* Insisted on speaking only English, since the only way to get ahead and be accepted (which leads to getting ahead and the quiet life)"

Solution: Speak English only/don't ask for special privilieges/don't elevate yourself(Not that Muslims do any of these things - but this is what you diagnose as the solution)


So you see OmarG - I don't think there is any disagreement about the fact that there are problems in the Muslim community - we differ on the solutions. Yours stem from an apparent self-loathing/self-esteem issues and so your prescription is public self-flaggellation while mine focus on the individual/family returning to the basic Quranic teachings and our KNOWLEDGEABLE leaders/activists speaking out about us and Islam to build bridges and spread information.