Justice Felix Frankfurter once observed that it is neither law, religious creed nor ideology that holds America together; it is, rather, a "binding tie of cohesive sentiment." As a Jew, Frankfurter understood that while "sentiment" was not the most stately concept it had its clear advantages. For, while not totally immune to abuses of power, sentiment is far more resistant than law, theology or ideology. A tyrannical government might condemn today's saint as tomorrow's heretic, but it cannot remove feelings of solidarity and empathy from the hearts and minds of those who see him as one of their own. Not only, however, was Justice Frankfurter a Jew, he was an immigrant. And this too surely helped him see the importance of "cohesive sentiment," even over such lofty concepts as law, equality or democracy.

Muslims too should now be learning about the importance of sentiment. Recently, Chicago attorney Mazen Asbahi was forced to retire as Barack Obama's Muslim outreach advisor, after it was learned that in 2000 he briefly served on the board of an Islamic investment fund with an allegedly "fundamentalist" Imam who was recently named an un-indicted co-conspirator in a case against alleged Hamas fund-raisers. Of course, everyone understood the game that was being played here: Obama's outreach to Muslim-Americans was about to be contorted into an exercise of aiding and abetting Muslim terrorists! In order to preempt this unfounded insinuation, Mr. Asbahi felt obliged to resign, in order, in his words, "to avoid distracting from Barack Obama's message of change."

Most Muslim observers have decried this fiasco as a blatant case of "guilt by association." I think the matter goes deeper. After all, the so-called "fundamentalist" Imam with whom Asbahi was alleged to have ties was found guilty of no wrong-doing. With what guilt, then, was Asbahi supposed to be associated? Rather than any wrong-doing, Asbahi was simply being associated with being a Muslim, the same 'charge' with which some have tried to 'smear' Senator Obama. Parties aiming to exclude Muslims from the American political process simply found a way to strip Asbahi's religious affiliation of all innocence, thereby inviting non-Muslim Americans to give full vent to their anti-Muslim phobia, under the cover of a would-be justification.

The real story in all of this, however, is that this tactic worked. And here we return to Justice Frankfurter's point about sentiment. Muslim-Americans are vulnerable to the attacks of their detractors because they are not sufficiently bound to their fellow Americans by enough "cohesive sentiment" to place a proper burden of proof on their accusers. The way to that sentiment, however, is neither through simple protest nor acts of ostensible public altruism. The way to that sentiment is through becoming a part of the American story, a story of powerful truths, lies and contradictions that have destined America to struggle, to her dying breath, to find that balance between enough remembering and enough forgetting to point her towards redemption. It is a story of America's quest to rid herself of the vile habit of violating her own principles and creating "problem peoples" who fall outside the reach of her lofty ideals. From the founding of the republic and Thomas Jefferson's "We hold these truths to be self-evident…", this quest -- more than anything else – has defined us as Americans. Indeed, this is the struggle that generates the "cohesive sentiment" that binds Americans as a people.

This is why Americans are so excited about the candidacy of Barack Obama: Obama holds out a chance for redemption. Amidst this excitement, however, Americans must remain mindful of the evil of which we have proved ourselves so capable of perpetrating. Muslim-Americans, meanwhile, must come to see that American history, whether we like it or not, is now our history, and that we cannot accept the bounties of her present without sharing responsibility for her past. And we must understand the difference between being a part of American society and being a part of the American story. To be part of the American story is to strive as mightily as other Americans in pursuit of American redemption.

Thus far, however, Muslims remain outside the American story, which is why, despite their positive contributions to society, they seldom enlist empathy when they are jailed, deported or discriminated against. Hopefully, however, it will not be long before Muslims come to understand this. Once they do, while guilt by association may continue, Muslims will be able to fight back. For in this they will be joined by others.

The major problem is that American Muslims are a disparate group with no common ties and even less respect for differences amongst themselves. With such a lousy sense of community and a lack of any established/distinguishable American form of Islam (differing forms to be found in every other Muslim country) the American public will never take Muslims seriously. In fact, its a global concern.

>The major problem is that American Muslims are a disparate group with no common ties and even less respect for differences amongst themselves.<

Really? Do tell how "disparate" we Muslims in America are, all the way from South Africa.

>With such a lousy sense of community and a lack of any established/distinguishable American form of Islam (differing forms to be found in every other Muslim country) the American public will never take Muslims seriously. In fact, its a global concern.<

On the contrary, we have a better sense of community then those Muslims who've watered down the religion with nationalism in other nations. What is an "American form of Islam"? More pro-regressive turnspeak.
The American public doesn't even take itself seriously, and are seen largely as sheep unable to change the state of affairs in a country which is spiraling downward.
I couldn't care less about being taken "seriously" by them.

"Rather than any wrong-doing, Asbahi was simply being associated with being a Muslim, the same 'charge' with which some have tried to 'smear' Senator Obama. Parties aiming to exclude Muslims from the American political process simply found a way to strip Asbahi's religious affiliation of all innocence, thereby inviting non-Muslim Americans to give full vent to their anti-Muslim phobia, under the cover of a would-be justification."

One of the many problems with this theory is that Asbahi was replaced with another U.S. Muslim and nobody has said a word. If these unidentified "Parties aiming to exclude Muslims" were really behind Asbahi's resignation, why would they suddenly and mysteriously decide to remain quiet when another Muslim took his place? Clearly, the problem was not with Asbahi as a Muslim but rather with his connections to four or five organizations with ties to the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood, only one of which was widely covered. When a Muslim-American without such ties was selected, body seemed to have any problem whatsoever.

As for "guilt by association", this is a tired and hackneyed defense raised when ever somebody dares to raise important questions, in this case about a person who might eventually go on to serve as part of a new U.S. administration. Remember that Asbahi resigned immediately after receiving a query from the Wall Street Journal about his ties. What was the Journal supposed to do...not ask the campaign about such an important issue?

There is so much more to this story than is generally discussed but I doubt that the author of this post has so much as even glanced at any of the original reporting. INstead, he choose to repeated the tired old defense raised by the U.S. Brotherhood and it's supporters, that mysterious forces are working against U.S. Muslims as if all U.S. Muslims are tied to the Brotherhood organizations. This actually is the attitude which truly does a disservice to the U.S. Muslim community.

I think you're the one who can't read too well, sg. Theres nothing mysterious about the forces working to undermine Muslim Americans and their participation in civic life. Guilt by association is the way its always been done. Mazen Asbahi isn't the first, and wont be the last..just ask Salam Al-Maryati. The source of this smear? Some internet Judeofascist outfit calling itself the "Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report."
The same crew of zionist parasites and political transvestites screaming "Brotherhood" happen to be members of the Zionist tribe, including the appropriate shabbos goyim. What a coincidence.
This is almost as absurd as Rita Katz's SITE disinfo group stealing images from video games to hype up what the Ay-rabs are going to do.


The United States is like the guy at the party who gives cocaine to everybody, and still nobody likes him.
- Jim Samuels

"The same crew of zionist parasites and political transvestites screaming "Brotherhood" happen to be members of the Zionist tribe, "

Why does this not surprise me.? After all, why bother to attempt a discussion based around facts when you can yell "Zionist" and have everything explained for you.

"The source of this smear? Some internet Judeofascist outfit calling itself the "Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report."

Interesting, I guess the Wall Street Journal is part of this "Internet Judeofascist outfit" because they published the story which got all the attention Oh yes, I forgot that the media is controlled by Zionists..silly me. I wonder how you came up with the idea that this publication is a "Judeofascist outfit?"

I don't think I will bother to respond to the rest of it. I think the mentality is pretty clear from this last comment which is-- don't bother to respond to the facts just engage in the most distasteful conspiracy mongering by labeling everything unfavorable as originating with "Zionists." I think we all know what that means- Jews. It always comes down to that doesn't it? The problem is that all your anti-semitic conspiracy mongering falls apart when we see that Asbahi's replacement who is also Muslim has not receive even an iota of attention from these" Judeofascists". I guess they must be on vacation.

As I have said, all of this does a real disservice to the U.S. Muslim community who needs to develop mature political institutions not dominated by foreign Islamists and not afflicted with this kind of anti-semitism.

>Why does this not surprise me.? After all, why bother to attempt a discussion based around facts when you can yell "Zionist" and have everything explained for you.<

Yelling? Hardly. This isn't FOX news or CNN where you can lie through your teeth and not be called on it. I'm sure its all a fluffy conspiracy theory that Perle, Ledeen, Wolfowitz, Chertoff, Kristol, Feith etc all happen to belong to the same fraternity of Jewish extremists active at the highest level of the government and are directly responsible for the invasion of Iraq. Who cares about $2 trillion missing from the Pentagon thanks to Dov Zakheim yet a single Muslim on Obama's outreach team is a cause of concern.
Keep ignoring the elephant in the room.

>Interesting, I guess the Wall Street Journal is part of this "Internet Judeofascist outfit" because they published the story which got all the attention Oh yes, I forgot that the media is controlled by Zionists..silly me. I wonder how you came up with the idea that this publication is a "Judeofascist outfit?"<

Nice try but no kool aid, sg. I'm afraid you're going to have to work on your comprehension skills a bit because you don't read too well. The Wall Street Journal identified the "Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report" as the source of the smear against Mazen Asbahi.


>As I have said, all of this does a real disservice to the U.S. Muslim community who needs to develop mature political institutions not dominated by foreign Islamists and not afflicted with this kind of anti-semitism.<

We have plenty of institutions(not rubber stamped by neocons thank you very much), all targeted by the crew of judeofascsits and their shabbos goyim followers, whethers its civil rights groups, or the Muslim boy scouts. As for me being a "foreign Islamist," wrong on both counts. I'm not a foreigners, nor a member of the phantom menace of "Islamism." Islamist is up there with jihadist and now wahhabist in my book. Totally stupid meaningless word that attempts to Anglicize an Arabic word, advertise it as intellectual and with deep meaning while actually only superficially pretending to bypass the connotations that are invariably associated with it by its religious context. In reality, it's those connotations and the religious context which are being manipulated to put the religion of Islam in new, hateful, bigoted, misrepresented terminology.
Wonder how "Jewist" would work out....oh, do get back to me when you find those Iraqi WMDs. While you're at it go find out what a Semite is before pulling that old dead rabbit out of your zionist hat. Hint : its not a East European Khazar lunatic living 5000 years in the past.

"same fraternity of Jewish extremists active at the highest level of the government and are directly responsible for the invasion of Iraq"

Oh yes, this certainly proves that "Jews" were behind the resignation of Asbahi. The anti-semitism is now dripping and classic.

"The Wall Street Journal identified the "Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report" as the source of the smear "

I can read but you don't get it. If what the news letter wrote (which you haven't actually read I suspect" was a "smear", don't you think the Wall Street Journal would have figured it out? What about the hundreds of other news outlets that carried the story, don't you think a single one of them could have figure out that it was a "smear". Oh, I forgot, Richard Perle must control the media as well. Problem is that what the newsletter wrote was based on public documents that anybody could verify. Some "smear".

". As for me being a "foreign Islamist," wrong on both counts."

Good to hear, never said you were just to be factual. What I did say that was the the "mainstream" U.S. Muslim organizations were.

"manipulated to put the religion of Islam in new, hateful, bigoted, misrepresented terminology. "

Seems to me that "Islamism" was an attempt NOT to taint all of Islam with the actions of the Muslim Brotherhood, etc etc. Anyway, the only hate and bigotry I see at the moment is yours.

"go find out what a Semite is before pulling that old dead rabbit out of your zionist hat"

I rest my case.

By the way, thanks for resurrecting the old canard that an Arab can't be an anti-Semite. Its always good for a laugh.

>> Really? Do tell how "disparate" we Muslims in America are, all the way from South Africa.

This site, your "discussions" with other Muslims, and other sources point to disparaties between people who are Muslim. I've heard American speakers of many persuasions. I read of immigrants, converts, black consciousness, Arab scholars, Sufis, Tableegh Jamaah ... disparities.

>> What is an "American form of Islam"? More pro-regressive turnspeak.

Its your form of Islam. Its the form of Islam embraced by other members of your community. The methods of operating as a community within your particular society. The American way of finding solutions. Dealing with each others differences. How you educate your children. Your level of intra-community tolerance. Sunni and Shia discrepancies aren't the same as they are in the Middle East. Where you spend your Zakaah. The level of internal accountability. Your exposure to American values of individual rights and freedom of speech (which you seem to have embraced). The type of legalism that is emphasized in Deen and the type of spirituality that is emphasized. How you decide who is elligible for Hajj. The relationship with non-Muslims and level of participation in the National government. You'll find these and other things become peculiar to different Muslim communities in different Muslim countries.

The ideology of Ummah is different from the actual dynamics of Ummah. The ideology are our respective personal views. The actual dynamics are the way it functions. The former is an opinion of the truth and the latter is the reality regardless of what we say.

>Good to hear, never said you were just to be factual. What I did say that was the the "mainstream" U.S. Muslim organizations were.<
>Oh yes, this certainly proves that "Jews" were behind the resignation of Asbahi. The anti-semitism is now dripping and classic.
<

Ah yes, here comes the ol' "antisemitism" card just in time whenever Zionists in government and their operatives in the media are spoken. Always amusing to hear fools with memories limited to a couple of weeks attempting to sarcastic.

"Mainstream" according to who? Guys who ignore zionists running around all the place yet get their panties in a twist the moment someone with an Arabic name shows up.

>I rest my case.

By the way, thanks for resurrecting the old canard that an Arab can't be an anti-Semite. Its always good for a laugh.<

You have no case, just like you haven't a clue what a Semite is. Arabs are the largest group of semitic peoples on the planet, only an utter ignoramus or some East European Khazar supremascist guilty of identity theft, living 5000 years in the past thinking God as his personal real estate agent would dispute this.
Easy on that Kool aid...

>This site, your "discussions" with other Muslims, and other sources point to disparaties between people who are Muslim. I've heard American speakers of many persuasions. I read of immigrants, converts, black consciousness, Arab scholars, Sufis, Tableegh Jamaah ... disparities.<

The US has no set identity with so many different groups of people around. All the different groups you've named have enormous and blurry overlap and can hardly be classified in a set category. At the end of the day they still face the same direction in Salah under the same roof which is what really matters.

>Its your form of Islam. Its the form of Islam embraced by other members of your community. The methods of operating as a community within your particular society. The American way of finding solutions. Dealing with each others differences. How you educate your children. Your level of intra-community tolerance. Sunni and Shia discrepancies aren't the same as they are in the Middle East.<

I would never put a nationality before the Deen. Islamic values are universal and clear on the issues. On the subject of integration, and the hoopla surrounding it, its largely noise on the white trash AM dial. Got a job? Speak the language? Law abiding citizen? Yeah? Guess what, you're integrated. Working at it? Great, keep it up. That doesn't mean we're going to become carbon copies of anyone else and not have our own individual identity.
The Sunni-Shia divide in the M.E. is a different subject altogether, and the sectarianism we've seen in the last 6 years has more to do with tactics and false flag attacks of the "liberators" in Iraq. The same strategy is being aimed at Muslim Americans in a bid to break them into divided ineffective ethnic sub-groups.

>Your exposure to American values of individual rights and freedom of speech (which you seem to have embraced).<

Don't believe the hype, the US is a plutocracy which doesn't have free speech. Its only been in the last 8 years that people noticed.

>> The US has no set identity with so many different groups of people around.
CONTRADICTS
>> On the contrary, we have a better sense of community then those Muslims who've watered down the religion with nationalism in other nations.

American Muslims like South African Muslims probably do have a sense of community, and that sense of community is further connected to our broader spiritual Ummah. But I don't think that that sense of community has been translated very effectively into community building, for the reasons I stated previously. That can also lead to a crisis of credibility. I also think your criticism of other Muslim Nations perpetuates a false propoganda by certain elements that cannot get broad based support in their own countries.

>> I would never put a nationality before the Deen...At the end of the day they still face the same direction in Salah under the same roof which is what really matters.

I respect your idea of the universal brotherhood of believers, standing shoulder to shoulder, equal regardless of race and creed, performing salaah in similar ways. And I agree with you that Nationality is a notional idea. But then again, so are equality, law, politics, culture, sanctity etc. These things fluctuate depending on the state of a society at any given time. I can guarantee you that your view of nationality is different from other people and other Muslims. But that doesn't relieve us of the implications of having a national identity.

A simple test. Do you place your family before Deen? Do you place your neighbours before Deen? Do you place your business dealings before Deen? If you really are a Doctor, do you place your ethics before Deen? Obviously NO. But that does not mean you do not govern your position as Husband, Neighbour, Friend, Doctor or Business Partner outside the framework of your value system.. which is in turn influenced by Islam.

We both have social contracts with governments and society. That social contract allows us to practice our religion and cultivate and even propogate our beliefs. But with that comes a responsibility to participate in those societies in a certain way. That is why if you have ever had the privilege of performing Hajj, you will notice that no distinction is made between the different societies. But different nationalities operate, behave and communicate in different ways. All of these distinctions are in conformance or enhance the common Islamic creed, but they result in some very different outlooks. That is what I talk about when I refer to "American" Islam. One spiritual community, but any community this large can't help but be diverse.

>> The Sunni-Shia divide in the M.E. is a different subject altogether, and the sectarianism...

Agreed, but I was not referring to M.E.sectarianism which was manipulated because it was there to be manipulated. I was referring to how Americans effectively deal with that sectarianism in their own unique way, being governed by their unique American environment. I think you will find that Americans effectively have a unique of dealing with the Sunni Shia divide as opposed to Pakistanis or Saudis for example.

>> Islamic values are universal and clear on the issues.

Islamic values are universal. But you and I and other human beings have beliefs regarding what a universal value is, that may differ. I would label the Hadd punishments in Arabia as unIslamic and other Muslims would hold it as Islamic. Also, I think it is mistaken to call a value Islamic and then say that it's universal. Because that excludes 80% of the worlds population from participating in that value a.k.a Kaafeers to some.

"Ah yes, here comes the ol' "antisemitism" card just in time whenever Zionists in government and their operatives in the media are spoken."

Ah yes, the "antisemitism card"...lets review. I ask you for some kind of evidence that "Zionists" were behind the resignation of Asbahi and you start ranting about Jews in government being behind the war in Iraq as proof the Jews are trying to disenfranchise American Muslims. Of course this cannot be understood in any other way than as some kind of grand conspiracy about Jews being behind everything. Then you reinforce this notion by further ranting about "Zionist operatives in the media." Perhaps you or the readers here are so far gone that they no longer recognize classical antisemitism when it is being espoused but I do believe the wider world knows it when they see it. So, keep digging yourself into a hole.

"You have no case, just like you haven't a clue what a Semite is. Arabs are the largest group of semitic peoples on the planet, only an utter ignoramus or some East European Khazar supremascist guilty of identity theft, living 5000 years in the past thinking God as his personal real estate agent would dispute this. "

So now I am "East European Khazar supremascist guilty of identity theft, living 5000 years in the past thinking God as his personal real estate agent " Oh yes, you are definitely not an antisemite. By the way, open a dictionary:

an·ti-Sem·ite [an-tee-sem-ahyt, an-tahy- or, especially Brit., -see-mahyt]
–noun
a person who discriminates against or is prejudiced or hostile toward Jews.

Well, let me tell you what you are which is an antisemite by this or any other definition of the word recognized by the community of rational people. As such, you forfeit the right to have any opinion on the Asbahi affair because as an antisemite, you have abandoned the domain of rational people and are in fact guilty of exactly what you accuses others of being which is racist, bigoted, and hateful.

I think the moderators of this forum need to take a serious look at their comments policy. This kind of garbage would have been deleted from any reputable forum and does a discredit to those who are trying to fight against anti-Muslim prejudice on the grounds that it is wise first to practice what you preach. You want others to have sympathy for your cause? Try holding your self to a bit of a higher standard.

Hoist by your own petard, Sg? You seem to be suffering from selective memory loss and disingenuous rants. Most Zionists are not Jews, but a slim majority of Jews are Zionists. Maybe you think its a coincidence that all the PNAC neocon top dogs belong to this criminal fraternity, its a foregone conclusion. These facts are not going to go away. I wonder why so many politicians show up at AIPAC trying to anti-zionist each other. I'm sure you wouldn't be so cavalier if Kristol, Podhoretz, Ledden, Pipes, Krauthammer, Perle, Feith, Wolfowitz, Scheunemann were Muslims. The same war mongering scum now want to start a war with Iran, once again based on nothing but rumors and innuendo. You can thanks the media Foxmans Goldbergs, Steyns, Medveds, Weiners, etc for that. But no! Lets go after someone like Mazen Asbahi, because the "Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report" says so! Better do your homework before playing dumb.

>So now I am "East European Khazar supremascist guilty of identity theft, living 5000 years in the past thinking God as his personal real estate agent "<

Coming from a guy who calls me a "foreign Islamist," thats funny. As for the '5000 year exile' Do grow up. Does this mean that the western black Atlantic diaspora is now entitled to whip up a sense of religious entitlement, stomp in to sub-Saharan Africa, force the indigenous population to live in perpetual exile, deny it basic resources, destroy livelihoods, receive billions from the Pentagon to maintain a state of perpetual war, act as a strategic point for Western powers to intimidate surrounding nations, and then charge all native Africans as bloodthirsty savages who only want this oh-so enlightened reclamation destroyed? Will they then call themselves the most democratic state in the region? Of course East European Khazars aren't even Semitic.

an·ti-Sem·ite [an-tee-sem-ahyt, an-tahy- or, especially Brit., -see-mahyt]
–noun
a person who discriminates against or is prejudiced or hostile toward Jews.<

What wishful tripe, trying to pass of Jews as the only Semites around. Are you denying that Arabs are Semites? They are the largest group of Semitic people on the planet so you're going to have to get something more then a single line definition from an outdated dictionary which defines "antisemitism" in reference to Wilhelm Marr in 1873. A Semite is a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs. Try picking up a history sometime and you might learn something.

>You want others to have sympathy for your cause? Try holding your self to a bit of a higher standard.<

Ah, yes. But invariably some observer, who knows the history and personal dynamics of the site surprisingly well, shows up to offer his or her astute and yet discouraging summary of its workings. Discouraging, because under the guise of the "objective" assessment, the observer usually vents his/her own dissatisfaction with being perhaps shunned or not properly recognized or such on the site. And that along with either direct put-downs, or more or less thinly veiled jabs at the regulars -- plus the mandatory pontificating (a.k.a. helpful advice) from high above the fray. But nothing personal, mind you, just "objective observing."
Nobody's asking for your sympathy(much less your call for censorship). This isn't FAUX news where you can get away with lies and misinformation, you get called on it. Try to ween yourself off the GeeHad Watch kool aid.

" Most Zionists are not Jews, but a slim majority of Jews are Zionists."

Trying to disguise antisemitism with the "zionist" label is rather lame at this point. Citing long lists of Jewish names as proof of something doesn't help your case either.

"Coming from a guy who calls me a "foreign Islamist,"

Never called you that sir, you might want to scroll up a bit

"As for the '5000 year exile........."

I have to say you have lost me here. I guess this is some kind of attempt to comment on Israel and Jews but for the life of me, I don't know what it has to do with Asbahi.

"What wishful tripe, trying to pass of Jews as the only Semites around. "

I see, so anti-Semitism no longer means prejudice against Jews? Thats news to most of us as is the idea that somebody is "trying to pass of Jews as the only Semites around."

"This isn't FAUX news where you can get away with lies and misinformation, you get called on it. Try to ween yourself off the GeeHad Watch kool aid."

Yes I can see that. This is place where we all should come to understand how the world really works- that Jews (oops..Zionists) control the media, the government, and conspired together to force Asbahi from office because he was Muslim and then to have him replaced by another Muslim which accomplished what exactly?

"more or less thinly veiled jabs at the regulars "

The only jab I make at the "regulars" is that while calling for action on anti-Muslim prejudice they do seem to tolerate your antisemitic (oops, there goes that wrong word again) ravings. I guess I would be more impressed with this site if somebody pointed out the hypocrisy.

"Nobody's asking for your sympathy(much less your call for censorship)."

Oh I see now....suggesting that the site uphold its own moderation policies is "censorship." Pardon me, I was only referring to the long list of your suggestions about my identity which, as I remember include a number of antisemitic slurs which of course is an interesting assumption on your part.

Sorry, but you can dress it up as you like but the sum total of your remarks consist of a grand conspiracy by Jewish Americans to deny American Muslims their genuine political rights. As evidence, you offer, well, nothing other than lists of Jewish names who you declare to be "Zionist operatives" and, as I follow the argument, presume that the same "Zionist operatives" are behind Asbahi's resignation which, after all, used to be the subject of this thread before we were forced to listen to your digressions on various subjects (all related to Jews coincidentally.)

What we actually know as fact, however, is that an Internet newsletter wrote that Asbahi was part of the leadership of a number of organizations that appear to be tied to the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood. Following that, the Wall Street Journal inquired to the Obama campaign about this which prompted Asbahi to resign. Your inclusion of these events as part of the grand Jewish conspiracy is without basis in any fact that anybody else can see.

I suppose in your world, the possibility that a newsletter tracking the Brotherhood found some genuine ties which peaked the interest of a newspaper is not a sufficient explanation. It just has to have something to do with Jews, doesn't it?

Frankly, I'm not sure why sgmiller is pretending the attack on Mazen Asbahi is not what the author, Professor Jackson, alleges it is:

"Rather than any wrong-doing, Asbahi was simply being associated with being a Muslim, the same 'charge' with which some have tried to 'smear' Senator Obama. Parties aiming to exclude Muslims from the American political process simply found a way to strip Asbahi's religious affiliation of all innocence, thereby inviting non-Muslim Americans to give full vent to their anti-Muslim phobia, under the cover of a would-be justification."

sgmiller claims that the fact there is a Muslim replacement means that there is no intention to "exclude Muslims from the American political process."

I have not been able to find on the internet where there was a Muslim replacement. Would sgmiller please provide the name of this replacement and a link to the source which announced this?

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/perspective-on-mazen-asbahi.html

" I'm not sure why sgmiller is pretending the attack on Mazen Asbahi is not what the author, Professor Jackson, alleges it is:"

I am not pretending anything. I just have this old-fashioned belief that there should be evidence for something being true and in the Asbahi case, there is simply no evidence that he was either "attacked" or that the the events leading up to his resignation had anything to do with him being Muslim per se.

" Would sgmiller please provide the name of this replacement and a link to the source which announced this?"

The announcement:

http://www.arabamericannews.com/news/index.php?mod=article&cat=Community&article=1430

The statement that she is Muslim:

http://www.arabamericannews.com/news/index.php?mod=article&cat=Community&article=1408

As I said, if nothing else, the fact that nobody has said one word about Asbahi's replacement, also Muslim, should at least put to rest the idea that any of this has anything to do with Asbahi being Muslim but I am sure there will be some who will figure out how the Jews (sorry ...Zionists) engineered this also.

You guys are whipping a dead horse that has nothing to do with the topic. Prejudice abounds, and the topic under discussion is prejudice towards Muslims.

>> Clearly, the problem was not with Asbahi as a Muslim but rather with his connections to four or five organizations with ties to the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood

We may still find that high ranking members of other religious denominations/cultures are associated with far more heinous organisations in more material and less cospiratorial ways. Some are actually foriegners granted asylum in the US. That association does not affect their political muscle, but similar associations do affect Muslim people. Tariq Ramadan for instance, was denied entry to the United States for making a small donation to small Palestinian charity that may or may not have had political ties to an extremist organisation (i.e. any Palestinian organisation). American Muslims are being subject to violations of American constitutional rights that very few other groups are likely to suffer.

American Muslims are a sizeable minority but their free participation in their country is being affected by a nonsensical foreign policy system. Its not about blaming Jews. Its about the discrepancy in treatment. This same dubious treament befell people loosely associated with Black Consciousness movements, socialist movements and communist movements during the fifties and sixites. Its not imagined. It is real. I'm sure that more examples abound.

"You guys are whipping a dead horse that has nothing to do with the topic. Prejudice abounds, and the topic under discussion is prejudice towards Muslims."

Actually, the topic under discussion was whether or not Asbahi resigned as the result of " simply being associated with being a Muslim" and by "Parties aiming to exclude Muslims from the American political process." Subsequent comments here have identified said parties as Jews. At this point then, the allegation has been made that Jew forced Asbahi too resign, a charge made without a shred of evidence.

"We may still find that high ranking members of other religious denominations/cultures are associated with far more heinous organisations in more material and less cospiratorial ways."

and who might these be?

"American Muslims are a sizeable minority but their free participation in their country is being affected by a nonsensical foreign policy system."

While not denying the existence of anti-Muslim prejudice, every poll taken indicates that Muslim-Americans enjoy slightly higher income than other groups and by and large are satisfied with their life in the U.S. That's a far cry from being denied "free participation."

"Its not about blaming Jews."

Wow....I couldn't have guess that from the comments here.

>> "Its not about blaming Jews." Wow....I couldn't have guess that from the comments here.

You read what you wanted to read in the comments. Many non-Americans make clear distinctions between Zionism and Judaism. And a summary of the topic is >> Despite their positive contributions to society, Muslims remain outside the American story, which is why they seldom enlist empathy when they are jailed, deported or discriminated against. << Did you hear the one about the American girl who was deported to Bangladesh for surfing the internet?

I would also like for the "conniving Jew" theory to end in our communities. They are ideas imported into our societies, lock stock and barrel with the imposed creation of the Israeli state.

>> Subsequent comments here have identified said parties as Jews.

One individuals comments has identified Zionism. That person has a habit of rubbing everyone the wrong way. You're looking for inferrences and found the right person to do that with.

>> "We may still find that high ranking members of other religious denominations/cultures are associated with far more heinous organisations in more material and less cospiratorial ways." and who might these be?

So much of Orthodox Jewry receives its funding from the United States. I'm talking about support for soldiers and racist settlements, not trade and medical research. So many facist leaders from South America and Asia have sought "asylum"/retirement in the United States. And some of American clergy sound like End-of-Day cultists.

>> every poll taken indicates that Muslim-Americans enjoy slightly higher income than other groups and by and large are satisfied with their life in the U.S.

Now back to the point. Firstly, American polls indicate that American polls suck. Seriously.. they aren't very accurate and are generally devised to generate opinion, not to test it. Secondly, Income disparity between rich and poor muslims are huge. Most Muslim immigrants arrive in the US educated or part of extended immigrant business networks. I think you will find that most Jews in Iran are also by and large satisfied with their life. But being satisfied with your life and being unable to influence the nation of your birth from dropping bombs on wedding parties in Afghanistan are two separate matters. You also need to get in touch with majority of your countries disenfranchised. There's some shocking bias against certain communities as exposed by Hurricane Katrina.

Your President has openly claimed to launch a Crusade, your Generals openly tell Christian congregations that there are demons in the Middle East, and your army assists Fundamentalist Christians in preach and feed programs wherever they are occupiers. Would you do that if you considered the opinion of your Muslim neighbour important?

"You read what you wanted to read in the comments. Many non-Americans make clear distinctions between Zionism and Judaism"

What I read was clear anti-Semitism as I have explained. As for "clear distinctions between Zionism and Judaism", that was not evidenced here and if by Zionism one means support for the existence of Israel, I suspect that the bast majority of Jews are also Zionists so the distinction would seem academic.

"I would also like for the "conniving Jew" theory to end in our communities. They are ideas imported into our societies, lock stock and barrel with the imposed creation of the Israeli state"

Its good to hear that you reject that but it seems now you are blaming Israel for anti-Semitism in the Muslim world? That seems rather ironic.

"One individuals comments has identified Zionism. That person has a habit of rubbing everyone the wrong way. "

Sorry but he identified Jews as in " judeofascsists" and other expressions. I will take your word that it rubs others the wrong way but I haven't noticed any complaints. When I see anti-Muslim bigotry on other forums I try to respond.

" far more heinous organisations"

Whether or not you believe that "orthodox Jewry" is far more heinous than the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas, I am not sure how any of this is relevant to the Asbahi affair. The concern there was a tie between anything to do with the Brotherhood and possibly the next President of the U.S. That unidentified "facist leaders" have sought sanctuary in the U.S. pertains to Asbahi how exactly?

"Firstly, American polls indicate that American polls suck. Seriously.. they aren't very accurate and are generally devised to generate opinion, not to test it."

Well....thats pretty much nonsense.

"But being satisfied with your life and being unable to influence the nation of your birth from dropping bombs on wedding parties in Afghanistan are two separate matters."

If you mean that some are unhappy because they don't control U.S. foreign policy, they should join the club. Thats a far cry from lacking "free participation" in the country's affairs.

"Your President has openly claimed to launch a Crusade,"

Give me a break, not that thing again.

" your Generals openly tell Christian congregations"

Hmm....I thought it was only that one guy Boykin.

"your army assists Fundamentalist Christians in preach and feed programs wherever they are occupiers. "

Again, I didn't realize the U.S. Army was in the missionary business

"Would you do that if you considered the opinion of your Muslim neighbour important?"

Perhaps my "Muslim neighbors' might also be happy that the U.S helped boot the Russians from Afghanistan, the Serbs from Bosnia, and the Iraqis from Kuwait as well as rather ineffectively trying to feed Somalians (yeah I know, that stuff doesn't count because it was for the wrong reasons).

"