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WEEKLY NEWSLETTER
altmuslim this week - august 25, 2008 - This week, Pakistan instability in the wake of Musharraf's resignation, Sherry Jones speaks to us about Jewel of Medina, and protest boats in Gaza teach us all a new lesson.
ASIDES
editor's blog
Zero tolerance for Muslim participation in politics? - The very people who fight to push Muslims out of the public square are also the ones clamoring for our communities to get out in the streets and prove our loyalty to the US. If only they could see the contradiction for themselves. (August 6, 2008)

Geeking out at SXSW Interactive - There is no better place to mingle with other geeks than at South by Southwest (SXSW) Interactive, one of the largest Internet-focused conferences in the country, where we presented a panel discussion on "Online Extremism - And The Muslims Who Fight It" (March 20, 2008)

CONTRIBUTORS
PODCASTS
altmuslim review 029 - A vibrant Muslim media could have an opportunity to restore balance to the Muslim public image - if it can get on its feet. In this episode, we explore the state of the Muslim media. Also, an interview with the creator of "Muslim Cafe", Navid Akhtar. (July 5, 2008)

altmuslim review 028 - Where in the world is altmuslim? This month, we report on the halal industry from the World Halal Forum in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and from Milan, Italy where we speak to Italian Muslims about the challenges they face. (May 20, 2008)

ELSEWHERE
Shahed will be participating in a panel discussion, Sourcing Islam, at the Religion Newswriters Association conference in Washington, DC (September 20, 2008)

Rushdie is no believer in free speech - Irfan Yusuf, The Age (Australia) (August 8, 2008)

Shahed will be participating in the Progressive Revival group blog at BeliefNet (July 29, 2008)

Western civilization? What a good idea that would be - Irfan Yusuf, New Zealand Herald (July 22, 2008)

Shahed will be speaking about the role of the Web in promoting Muslim civic engagement at the ISNA South Central Zone Conference in Houston, Texas (July 5, 2008)

Shahed will give a presentation, Shaping the Public Debate About Muslims, at the Center for American Studies in Rome, Italy (May 12, 2008)

Zahed will be a guest on BBC Radio 4's "Sunday" programme speaking about religious podcasting (May 4, 2008)

Rafia and Shahed will be guests on South Africa's Channel Islam, speaking about interpreting Islam in the modern world (March 28 & April 4, 2008)

Shahed will be speaking at the CAMP International Leadership Summit in Princeton, NJ (March 29, 2008)

Shahed will be a guest on Radio Tahrir, airing on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York, speaking about the Muslim block vote (April 1, 2008)

Shahed will be appearing on The Agenda with Steve Paikin for a recap of altmuslim's SXSW panel "Online Extremism" (March 26, 2008)

altmuslim is hosting a panel discussion at 2008 SXSW Interactive, "Online Extremism (And The Muslims Who Fight It)" (March 9, 2008)

Count blessings, then tally taxes - Hesham Hassaballa, Chicago Tribune (February 24, 2008)

'Busharraf' gets the people's message - Irfan Yusuf, New Zealand Herald (February 22, 2008)

Shahed will be participating in the US-Islamic World Forum in Doha, Qatar (February 17-19, 2008)

Sharia an unlikely threat - Irfan Yusuf, stuff.co.nz (February 13, 2008)

Converts' dangerous pull towards extremism - Irfan Yusuf, Sydney Morning Herald (February 7, 2008)

Safiyyah will be appearing on The Agenda with Steve Paikin for a debate on "Today's Young Muslim Women" (February 1, 2008)

Sidelining the loud-mouthed cultural warriors - Irfan Yusuf, Canberra Times (January 10, 2008)

Safiyyah will be guest writing at the TVO website offering commentary on the two-part TV series Britz (February 2008)

IN THE NEWS
National publisher kills Spokane journalist’s book - [Amanullah] sent e-mails to about 200 graduate students in Islamic studies, telling them of Spellberg's "frantic" call and asking if they had heard about the novel. "What I got back was a collective shrug of the shoulders," says Amanullah. "The thing that is surreal for me is that here you had a non-Muslim write a book, and you had a non-Muslim complain about it, and a non-Muslim publisher pull the book." (August 20, 2008)

Self censoring Muslims - "But Amanullah says he never wanted the book pulled. 'I'm upset the book wasn't published,' he said, 'not because I agree or disagree with the book.' For him, 'I don't want to be in the position where we are stifling speech. Preemptive censorship is not in our interest. That's worse than even censorship. We're not going to silence our way out of problems.'" (August 12, 2008)

You still can’t write about Muhammad - "But Ms. Spellberg wasn't a fan of Ms. Jones's book. On April 30, Shahed Amanullah, a guest lecturer in Ms. Spellberg's classes and the editor of a popular Muslim Web site, got a frantic call from her. "She was upset," Mr. Amanullah recalls. He says Ms. Spellberg told him the novel "made fun of Muslims and their history," and asked him to warn Muslims." (August 5, 2008)

Why the silence? - "Both reactionary religion and militant secularism are on the rise, with both displaying a rigid certainty and a desire for power that will do nothing to benefit society. In this context, it is vital that people with open-minded faith speak up and demonstrate alternatives. [altmuslim.com has] set many good examples in this regard." (January 8, 2008)

Does the US tolerate anti-Muslim speech? - "You see more hostility towards Muslims now than you did the year after 9/11," says Shahed Amanullah, editor of a Muslim web-zine, AltMuslim.com. He and other observers point to America's failure to capture Osama bin Laden, the continuing difficulties in Iraq and Afghanistan, and news of terrorist plots overseas as reasons why many Americans feel hostile towards Muslims. (December 7, 2007)

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Pakistan's Lal Masjid
The cult and the crisis
The Lal Masjid debacle raises the question of what exactly the relationship is between Islam and Pakistan, and between the state and the citizen. Is Pakistan a secular or a sacred state?

Historically, crisis cults emerge in societies whose ideological, structural, social and cultural mores are increasingly unable to meet the needs of their people. The uncertainty borne out of these pervasive failures are indeed what crisis cults cater to. If the Lal Masjid debacle can be considered a festering sore on the already ailing body of the Pakistani nation, the anthropological lens of "crisis cults" provides a useful framework for diagnosing the core issues that have led to the evolution of such a bewildering phenomenon. According to anthropologists, a "crisis cult" is "a group reaction to a crisis, chronic or acute, that is cultic... where the crisis is a deeply felt frustration or basic problem with which routine methods secular or sacred cannot cope" and the "cultic" is the inability to accept any feedback that disrupts the myth of the cult or the appetite of individuals to believe.

The rhetoric used by two Maulanas, the now deceased Ghazi Abdul Rashid and the arrested Abdul Aziz, provides important clues in this regard. Both brothers as well as Umme Hassan, the female principal of Jamia Hafsa, pepper nearly every speech and media interview with a reminder of how the Pakistani state is failing the poor man. Their demand is a simple one: an Islamic system for Pakistan, a country created in the name of Islam. This is a great tactic. In the simplicity of their rhetoric, the leadership of Lal Masjid has captured succinctly the burgeoning crisis that is at the root of the "deeply held frustration" that anthropologists associate with crisis cults.

Indeed, the identity crisis that feeds this "deeply held frustration" is one that was created by revisionist history and nationalistic myths that the Pakistani population has been constantly fed for the last sixty years. Whether it is historically incorrect textbooks that propagate myths about the inherently religious nature of the struggle for independence or ludicrous beliefs regarding the character of Pakistani territory as originally Muslim since the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), the beastly confusion and manipulation manifests itself again and again in myriad ways.

The current military administration has contributed to promoting and manipulating the current identity crisis. The Women's Protection Bill was celebrated as a victory against religious conservatives. In reality, with appeasements such as making fornication and adultery a crime under the Pakistan Penal Code, the Bill did nothing to assuage the central question that plagues Pakistani nation identity: what exactly is the relationship between Islam and Pakistan and between the state and the citizen? Is Pakistan a secular or a sacred state?

This question has been answered with sly simplicity by the leaders of the Lal Masjid campaign. For them, things are quite simple: Pakistan was created in the name of Islam and so all else must be abandoned and an Islamic system reinstated. In coupling the practice of their simplistic formula with the highly dramatized theatrics of vigilante justice and insuring themselves media attention by employing the seductive morality of cracking down on sexual licentiousness, the two Maulanas assisted by the formidable Umme Hassan, have tapped into the" deeply held frustration" increasingly ignored by both the military and the secular democratic forces in the country.

The chronological significance of the emergence of the Lal Masjid campaign is also worth drawing attention to. The military, once dutifully revered and feared by most Pakistani citizens, has muddied its uniform by its unglamorous foray into the always-messy realm of politics. Forced to play power games that involve popularity rather than security, the past few months have seen President Pervez Musharraf and the military administration increasingly preoccupied with manoeuvres designed not to defend territorial boundaries but rather to co-opt political enemies. The need and pressure of co-option has become so intense with the suspension of the Chief Justice of Pakistan and consequent constitutional crisis that the Army's reputation as an arbiter of stability has become increasingly questionable.

Similarly, the promise of "real" democracy also bears little hope for the ordinary Pakistani. The supposedly national political parties, recently so incensed over the suspension of the Chief Justice and so ardently committed to his reinstatement, promise little better in terms of resolving either the incipient identity crisis or providing any meaningful expectation of structural change. At best they retain conveniently "democratic" facades for oligarchic landowners, clan leaders and urban industrialists who use established relationships of patronage to pledge support to a national leader. The same faces and figures are recycled before a wearied nation left hapless after ruined experiments with both authoritarian and democratic governments.

Enter the Lal Mosque, a new voice markedly different from that of the usual suspects and promising a utopic society where moral order prevails and justice is accessible. Their emergence and perseverance on the national scene signifies both the presence of a gaping political chasm and the inability of old power figures to respond to the frustrations of an increasingly poor, disillusioned and young Pakistani public. If the opportunistic chronology and festering identity issues are combined, the case is compelling and typifies exactly the "deeply felt frustration and basic problem with routine methods" invoked by the definition of crisis cults at the beginning of our discussion.

If the existence of a "crisis" is thus taken for granted, then we must move on to whether the Lal Masjid's modus operandi can truly be described as "cultic". Both the iconography and the simplistic rhetoric employed by the Maulana brothers at the helm of the movement suggest a cultic character pivoted on the charisma of the leadership and the isolation of members from the larger society.

Videotapes of Jamia Hafsa show women dressed in their now iconic niqabi burqas, increasingly rapturous in their pleas to the Divine and committed to their isolation in the name of reinstating an Islamic order. Their vigilante behaviour is also typical of cultic groups which often require daring feats of members as a means of proving their commitment to the cause. The raids on video shops, the kidnappings of alleged prostitutes, the forcible occupation of property and now holding students hostage, all suggest a mentality that perceives the members of the group as "good" and the larger society as irreparably errant and misguided. Finally, the unfailing belief among students of Jamia Hafsa that their "sacrifices" would actually result in the establishment of an Islamic system as well as their obstinate allegiance to death for their cause, both demonstrate a distortion of reality that is typical of cults.

If Lal Masjid can indeed be described as a crisis cult, the following questions are raised: What juncture have we as a nation reached when suicide cults inhabit our capital and defiantly claim jurisdiction over Government property? What depths of despair have the destitute women and orphan children been reduced to when entering an extremist movement represents a respite from the harshness of day to day existence? What level of ignorance has our understanding of Islam fallen to such that the most marginal and extremist allusion to faith immediately garners thousands of followers?

As Pakistanis sift through the psychological, social and political debris left by the Lal Masjid crisis they must ponder these questions carefully. Crisis cults emerge in societies whose ideological, structural, social and cultural mores are increasingly unable to meet the needs of their people. True, their solutions are vacuous, misguided and cruel in the exploitation of those who chose to fall for them but the danger lies not simply in the solution that they offer but rather the deep festering crises that they represent.

Six decades have passed since the creation of Pakistan. There have been many experiments both with democracy and with authoritarianism � indeed as a nation, Pakistan has become used to both crisis and uncertainty. Yet if the Lal Masjid debacle and the innocent lives that it has claimed is to mean anything at all, it is time to grapple with questions that have been ignored for nearly sixty years. The most basic among these questions is this: who is Pakistan as a nation and why indeed was it created?

Rafia Zakaria is associate editor of altmuslim.com and an attorney and member of the Asian American Network Against Abuse of Women.  She teaches courses on constitutional law and political philosophy. This article previously appeared in Daily Times (Pakistan).


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45 COMMENTS ON THIS ARTICLE



I maintain that we owe the Hindus a huge thank you for not resorting to mass killing and extermination of Islam (and Christianity) from India. If the Hindus had done what the Europeans normally have done, from the conquistadors to the White-Americans, we would have seen a thousand times the bloodshed that you have referred to.

What you say about atrocities in Gujarat and Babri are unconscionable crimes without a doubt. But when you have seen so much revenge being justified in the world, this is to be expected and if anything I am amazed it is not far worse. But for those who were killed in the riots, it is the end of the world. I agree.


As for Indians not being proud of the Taj Mahal, correct me if I am wrong but I heard it got the most number of votes for being included in the wonders of the world. Surely not all the millions of text messages that came in were from Indian Muslims only?!!! :-)


Foolkiler,

Dalit treatment is much better in India than it used to be, especially in public life. But, in rural areas they are not treated as equals yet. But, I will give Indians for making this progress. It is still far from ok. How am I part of the culture though?

I think you need to read the Indian history from texts other than BJP ones. There was no attempt to eradicate Hinduism. Where did you get that? There were robbers who pilaged the land and there were rulers who wanted to rule everyone - Hindu and Muslim. Unlike the British, Muslims made India their home and did not transfer the wealth of the country elsewhere. Hindus did not lose total power over their fate either even at the height of Muslim rule. There were smaller kings, fiefs who ruled over hindu/muslim commoners.

Oh about Taj Mahal - I was surprised too. But, that goes show that their are Hindus who still hold resentment towards all things muslim, unfortunately.


With all due respect Arshad, I must say that it is you and Irfy who have probably read these 'BJP Texts' whatever they may be. I neither know of them nor have read them. My impression of the destruction wrought by Muslims in India comes from the various ruined Hindu sites I have visited personally. Off the top of my head I can only think of Vijaynagar in southern India, but I can refer back to my notes and give you a list of other sites.

But wait, it was not my intent to start a Hindus Vs Muslims comparison here. What is evident from this discussion is that there is a severe denial of history on part of the Muslims of the subcontinent. All you have to do is look at these ruins to know that there was indeed a great attempt made repeatedly by the invading muslims to turn India into Moslem country. And then look a the constant drumbeat of the supremacy of Islam even today (in fanatical circles) to understand why.

In that act, they were no different from the Conquistadors or the Crusaders. When you say 'Muslims came to stay' you say it as though they were not interested in changing the place 'they chose to stay'. The conquistadors never left South America. If you want another example of what I mean by caste being a feature of humanity, visit Argentina or Chile and see how the whites have dominated the 'Indios'. The first thing invaders do is destroy places of culture and worship. If you think muslims did not do this, you have not only fooled yourself about history you are also blind to current events. Why do you think the Mosque in Karbala was bombed again and again? Not content with the destruction of golden dome they had to rocket the minarets! This is the ferocity of sunni against shia! Do you want to think that the Arab and central asian hordes that were riding high on blood and religion, would spare 'heathens' in India?

You need to begin to look at history from a long time ago if you want to understand the hatred today. In that sense, my hats off to Hindus for ignoring all that burden of history and choosing to live with Christians and Muslims as opposed to the Muslims who chose to break away.

Finally would you at least agree to the fact that even today it is easier to get away with destroying a Hindu temple in Pakistan or Bangladesh without anyone noticing, than it is to tear down a mosque in India without causing a religious riot?


And one more thing - your point that the Taj Mahal is 'the most iconic' monument rings hollow because it is probably the most iconic MUSLIM monument. There are more Muslim monuments left standing than Hindu ones because almost all Hindu architecture in northern India was razed to the ground and built over by Muslim rulers. That is not revision of history, it is a fact. You have to go to the deep south to see an old temple left standing that was there before the age of Muslims in India.

While I think the Taj is a magnificent example of art (and not to forget ego), it is also an example of squandering of millions from the state exchequer for one man's pleasure.

My favorite site in India is a temple complex in the eastern state of Orissa. I am surprised (pleasantly) that the Hindu masses you disdainfully dismiss, chose to use the Taj Mahal instead of a Hindu shrine as an example of the wonder of the world. I can name a few temple complexes in southern India(Rameshwaram) that are simply marvelous and represent Hindu culture in all its purity with no other influences.

Somewhere along the way Muslims need to stop being so defensive about their history in India.


Footkiler,

I don't disdainfully dismiss anything. Maybe you have missed my comment that there were robbers who came and destroyed, looted the temples of India. And there were the rulers who made alliances with the Hindu kings, build empires. Tell me where did I say Muslims were all saints and that muslims did not commit any atrocities in India?

You are also simplifying the history of partition if you think if Muslims were the only party to blame in that tragedy.

BTW, majority of muslims today in Bengal do not trace their lineage to the invading Turks, Mughals Arabs and what not. We are essentially, for the most part, converts from the lower caste Hindus. To the upper caste Hindus, we were still untouchables not too long ago.



Arshad bhai and Foolkiler,
Obviously some interesting thoughts and feelings you are contributing here.
Let me tell you all that Pakistan will never progess. See how many Singers have gone to India and make it big. Arshad please stop talking of poor treatment of muslims. Talents are recognised. You have to watch Zee TV saregamapa and you would see how these talented singers from pakistan are respected and appreciated. On the other hand, music and films are banned in India and part of lalmasjid problems were related to imposing ban on music and films.Rahat fateh ali Khan, Adnam Sami, Ghulam Ali, Nusrat Fateh ali Khan, Atif Aslam and many many more have made it big in india. Film maker Mahesh Bhatt is continually promoting pakistan by introducing Pakistani artist and muslim themes. But alas, the old guys /conservatives/radicals muslims just want to destroy everything. How can a country progress. i agree that Musharaff is a dictator but it was the citizens of Pakistan who allowed this. So many PM are disposed of. again, because they cannot shift the gear. Mixing politics, economy and progress with religion.
have a good day my dear brothers!!


By the way muslim is a religion and not a race. You were all indians before partitions. I hate the use of indian muslims. How come no one use the word indian Hindus?
This is where people have a problem with identities and that has been continually a problem in Europe too.


Arshad, are you seriously suggesting that 'robbers and looters' destroyed the many, vast temple complexes that are in ruins all over India? Really?

I agree that Hindus had as much to do with partition as Muslims. But the fact remains that in India there are over 150 million Muslims; but in Pakistan and Bangladesh the Hindus are a microscopic, insignificant and extremely abused minority.

I have no idea what percentage of Muslims in India are descendants of Arabs or native people. But here is the problem: Nobody wants to admit their forefathers were 'untouchables'. I think this is why many Muslims would rather claim their lineage from Arabia than India! I suspect that this is part of the problem in Pakistan where they vehemently reject their Hindu heritage.

When I visited remains of the lost civilization of Harappa, I was absolutely amazed at the decrepit and abandoned look it had! In stark contrast, there are many insignificant Muslim monuments lovingly tended to - though there are many great Muslim monuments also in great disrepair - I hasten to add!

When speaking to Egyptians, I did not find that kind of rejection of ancestry though all the great Egyptian achievements were accomplished by animistic, idol worshiping infidels! By many current 'Islamic' standards the Pharaoh would have been the first to be condemned!

Is it the fact that Hinduism continues to live today, that does not permit the Moslems who converted from it, to appreciate what was good in it? Or do they have such hate for all things Hindu without really knowing anything about it?

As you can see, I am biased towards the Hindus. I have seen a lot of the world and I cherish the variety it offers. I am dead set against any theology that aims to make it all look uniform in thought, dress and culture. Hinduism is a unique culture that has managed to survive both the European and Muslim onslaughts. I know it has its ills, but like I said, these ills are more due to its ancient burden of time and history. I believe that in five hundred years from now, the USA will have all these problems of poverty, caste, internecine warfare among tribes and religions. Let us see if it survives for as long as Hinduism has survived.

Good bye.


"Shit," as munna would say, why don't you two (follkiller and Arshad) get a room or something...

;-)


Munna,

I believe I don't need to repeat what I said before - Pakistan is a terrible mess and has been that way since its birth. I don't belong to that country and I don't defend its behavior.

Footliker,

My choice words may not have been very good. By robbers and looters, I meant som Muslim invaders who only wanted to destroy and loot. Hope that clarifies it.

If I wasn't proud of my ancestory being in the native India rather than far away land in Arabia, I would not have mentioned that little fact about the majority bengali muslims lienage. You will not find too many Bangladeshis who are not proud of Tagore. You would be surprised to know how popular the classical and modern Hindu writers/music/art in Bangladesh (or may be you already know).

Yes, I have noticed your bias towards Hindus. Nothing wrong with that. But, I believe you are minimizing the fact that none of the countries in the subcontinent, including India have much tolerance. We have a long way to go before we don't have things like Gujrat, Lal Masjid and host of other incidents.


Arshad, Munna and Foolkiler (not Footliker :),

I am from Bangladesh. Very interesting discussion. My personal opinion:

Partition was our (Muslims of undivided India) mistake, because today 500 million muslims could easily beat the crap out of RSS, Hindutva etc. and so we gave them the chance to create a Hindu super power, where it could have been a Hindu-muslim super power.

That is water down the bridge. Today the Zionists have hijacked the Hindutva and become its driving force as it had done with the US with the neocon operatives. There is now a budding Hindu-Zion-US axis that is anti-muslim at its core. What you are hearing from foolkiler are the same tired old arguments of the Islamophobes that are dime a dozen on the net.

We, the muslims of former India, whether we are in Pakistan, India or Bangladesh face the same threat or hatred, why, as foolkiler says, because of what some (5-10%) of our ancestors may or may not have done 300-800 years ago! How can we change the past or some manufactured past, we cannot and there is nothing we can do to change this hatred, unless they grow out of this idiocy and imbecilic idea - it will not happen, as India is largely poor and illiterate and will remain so for the next 50 years. So more field day for the Zionist propagandist ahead.

Hindu's feel shame and disgust at the fact that they were ruled by Muslims for the past 800 years and as a result hate all Muslims, specially Indian Muslims. They hate the descendants of the immigrant foreign muslims and they hate the indigenous converts even more, because these are the Shudra's and Dalit's that betrayed and back stabbed the Hindu's of old. Most Indians know how to hide these feelings well, they have hidden it for the last 1000 years, so they have the skill to do it.

Let me say it, if the Hindu's can hate us, let them, we have no hatred, but we have to be realistic about this threat, so we must ally with India's arch-enemy China, just as Pakistan has done, but we should continue to have good relation with the West, because they are not a direct threat for us as India is.

And yes, we need to advertise these facts of Hindu hatred to all our Muslim brothers in other countries, as many are being fooled by the Indian sweet talkers. India continue to have good relation with most Muslim countries in the world, hiding their real feelings. It is our duty as Muslims to inform other Muslim nations about this.



Not to forget the topic at hand, yes, we the large silent majority of Muslims in Bangladesh do not agree with Lal Masjids extreme ways, but we believe they are a victim of ISI and CIA. So shame, shame and shame on Busharraf for killing his own people for scoring points with Amrikka. May he go to hell for his crimes against humanity and may the misguided Shaheeds soul rest in peace in Jannat.


If I may ask my learned friend from Bangladesh, to answer this question honestly, which particular Khilji king is his inspiration for the handle?


Bakhtiar Khilji.


I was listening to these famous African footballers speaking about how as Africans we don't get inspired enough by ourselves. That there is enough mass sentiment to do whats right but not enough conviction and passion amongst us as people to follow through on an emancipated life. They didn't say it exactly, but thats what they said. Divided amongst ourselves and united in mass self pity.

Musharraf is a military dictator and Pakistan is a turbulent country and we are an annihilistic Ummah with Utopian delusions. They had it coming. We all do.


I am glad to hear you are not inspired by Allauddin Khilji instead! But you make my point by proving that almost no muslim who speaks out today uses the examples of sufis and saints - instead they all take after violent, military invaders! While Bakhtiar was not as demented as Alluddin, he was still an invader and a destroyer. You may believe that only 5-10% of the invaders were bad people (which is naive - but let's let that go), but the problem is that the Muslims of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh look back at these 10% for inspiration. Almost every Muslim I met felt that their glorious days were under powerful military men like aurangzeb. In case you wonder, Allauddin's 'accomplishments' include, destruction of the Somnath Temple in Gujarat, sacking of Madurai, being a homosexual and keeping a eunuch named Malik Kafur (who was a slave boy captured in Gujarat, converted to Islam, and castrated).

Before you fly off the handle, my point is - if the same kind of desecration had been done to Muslims - say in Mecca - would you have forgotten it after as you say '300-800 years'? Remember Ali? when was his betrayal? 1400 years ago approximately? Why whip yourself into frenzy and mourn him every year?!


You have mentioned all thats in wiki for good ol' uncle Al khilji, but you have not mentioned that he repelled several large Mongol invasions to India and this was no mean feat.

Sorry foolkiler, I will not engage you in this debate, as I have seen these before and know where its going. If you are an Indian Hindu I would discuss with you these matters, but you are not, so frankly it is none of your business. Have a nice day and do something productive.


Footkiler,

Hopefully, my last reply to you. Your bias (as freely admitted by yourself) is making you a bit blind. How many Bangladeshis muslims have you surveyed to know that we take inspirations from the likes of Aurangazeb? The only Mughal that is well liked is Akbar. Have you heard of Shah Jalal. Likes of him have had more influence on bengali muslims than mughal emperors.

You already made one gross generalization from one lawmakers off the record comment that we hate Hindus. I gave you ample examples of being otherwise. You have accused me of minimizing atrocities of muslim invaders, when I have done none of that.

I thought wrongly that you had genuine interest in honest debate. It was very naive of me to think that way.

Goodbye.


Good bye Arshad, it was nice talking to you. Your naiveté is not about me, it is about your own people. You will see what I mean when Bangladesh spirals down the mad Islamic path it is embarking on right now.

As for you Khilji, are we to take it that because what I say happens to appear in wikipedia it is worthless? Amir Khusro wrote about it too, you know? Was he a liar too? Many people make the mistake of thinking that because information is easily available today, it is not worth much. You are wrong about that. If we were to argue that way, any reference book would worthless because it all available in the net easily!

Anyway - your point that he (Uncle Ali as you call him), repelled Mongol invasions does not in anyway make him beloved to Hindus because of the other things he did. You have chosen the cowardly way of ignoring what I said in terms of why is it ok for Muslims to remember their hurts forever but all other religions should forget theirs! To quote you 'I have seen this before!'

Cowardice comes in many forms - hypocrisy being one of the most common ones. You don't have to engage anyone in any debate. Just think quietly and come to some honest terms with yourself.

By the way, another bomb exploded in Pakistan a few minutes ago in Islamabad. More martyrs for you to celebrate. At this rate your China policy is in great jeopardy because even China will not touch any Muslim country unless they have a billion barrels of Oil!


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