Berlin May 23, 2006. We entered the mosque through a large iron gate closely watched by a score of Turkish men. Unlike most architecturally interesting buildings in Berlin, which are open and easily accessible, this mosque which is both majestic and grand, is surrounded by a high wall and is accessible only through iron gates. I was in Berlin for a conference organized by the American Institute for Contemporary German Studies, and one of their scholars and a Berlin Parliamentarian kindly volunteered to show me around Berlin.

As we approached the grand mosque, the Berlin Parliamentarian remarked, "Notice the Turkish flag on the mosque? Do you see a German flag anywhere?"

The daylong conference in Berlin was about comparing the experiences of Germany and the US in integrating their Muslim minorities. Throughout the day, scholars from both sides of the Atlantic struggled with political and philosophical issues involved in the absorption of large number of minorities whose political and cultural values may be at odds with those of the host nations.

While Muslim scholars argued for more openness, more religious and racial tolerance, and equal treatment of all religious communities, others called for more assimilation and insisted that immigrants must make the effort to learn local languages and adapt to the mainstream political and cultural norms.

As I looked at the mosque with its Turkish flag flying proudly, the high walls, the iron gates and the stoic faces, I suddenly realized that this was not a mosque - this was a sort of embassy, a foreign enclave, an extention of Turkish sovereignty in the heart of Germany. In the US, one may occasionally find a US flag in a mosque, but never a flag of a foreign country. The only mosque that has foreign flags is the Islamic Center in Washington DC, which was established by diplomats from Muslim countries.

I sympathized with the Berlin Parliamentarian�obvious displeasure with the Turkish flag. Turkish nationalism is particularly irritating. Several years ago I ran into a large contingent of Turks in the Holiest of Muslim Mosques in Mecca while circumambulating the Kaaba. They were wearing tiny Turkish flags on their shirt collars. I found this display of nationalism even in the House of God deeply offensive. Islam is a strictly monotheistic religion and nationalism in its extreme form begins to subvert the very idea of One God. Perhaps these Turks did not know that God is blind to nationality, ethnicity and race.

With Islamophobia on the rise in most western countries, grand displays of Islamic religiosity ᠴe mosque is indeed fabulous ȱ#mbined with overt, in your face displays of allegiance to foreign nations can only be described as spectacularly stupid.

Both Muslims and non-Muslims are actively demanding the elimination of barriers between western mainstream and Muslim Diasporas. While Muslims are insisting that host societies accommodate, recognize and respect all the differences that they bring, Non-Muslims ϱ5ually the dominant white Judeo-Christians ӱ!e demanding that Muslims moderate these differences. In Germany the focus is on learning the German language and the incorporation of Islam as a German institution. In the U.S. the challenges are more related to real or perceived sympathy of American Muslims for anti-Americanism in the Middle East.

Muslim immigrants bring three significant challenges to Western societies ұ#ltural differences, religious differences and political differences. In the U.S. the first two challenges are easily manageable. Most Americans believe in the United States as a multicultural society and deeply value religious pluralism. Unlike Europe where the elite talk a lot about secularism but the State actually incorporates religion, America does practice separation of church and State.

In the US, the government is neither involved nor interested in how Islam is institutionalized or managed by Muslims, where as in Germany the state not only teaches religion in school but also has religious clergy on government payroll. This becomes particularly problematic, since Germany finances both Christianity and Judaism but does not even recognize Islam.

In the US, most people respect and even value cultural differences, jealously guard religious freedom and consequently practice religious pluralism at all levels of society. Primarily because most AmericanխӠare from somewhere else, the fact that Muslims are also from elsewhere is not a big issue.

American identity is open, flexible and continuously evolving. American citizenship is also easily acquired and hence becoming American in law and spirit faces less cultural and political barriers. Additionally the "American dream" is a powerful positive that all immigrants aspire towards and often achieve. When traveling overseas, I frequently testify that coming to America for me was like joining the Marines ᠩ America one can "be all you can be".

At present the key barrier to the mainstreaming of Islam in America is the relations between the US and the Islamic World.

Germany has a long way to go. Even though it does not have foreign policy problems like the U.S., it has several domestic policy issues. First, Germany must recognize Islam. Germany has been for decades a multi-ethnic society but very few Germans imagine Germany as a multicultural society. German intellectuals brag a lot about being secular, well how about secularizing the German State and dumping Christianity and Judaism from the national budget.

German identity is rooted in the past and is culturally tied to race and ethnicity. Becoming German is very difficult even for those who are born in Germany. They may speak German better than most natives but happen to look like me rather than Boris Becker.

German intellectuals must begin to imagine a Germany as a political community that is a composite of values, rather than a nation-state based on a specific ethnicity. In the age of globalization, narrowly defined identities are untenable. Germany as an integral part of the emerging global society must define itself in terms of global values that are sensitive to cultural, racial and religious differences and become a role model for other European nations like Ireland and Portugal that will soon face similar problems.

Muslims who live as minorities in the west or anywhere else, must understood that their demand for tolerance for religious and cultural differences is a just cause. But they must align their political and economic interests with those of their neighbors (whose acceptance they seek) and not with those who live in foreign lands.

There is room for Islam in America and Germany. We can and we will build bigger and more spectacular mosques in the West, but there is no place for Saudi flags or Turkish or Pakistani flags in Western mosques. They have their embassies and that is enough. They should not be allowed to use our mosques.

Muqtedar Khan, what a pleasure to see you here in this forumn. I sincerely hope that your request for reasonable debate is adhered to.

"How one responds is a measure of one's own character not that of what one is responding to."

I could not agree more with this statement.

Good day.

if you have been to the haram then you would see the people from different nationalities in their own groups using a countries flag helps keeps those people togther by making it easier for them to find each other amongst millions of people.. im not going to argue with you over this issue ,,
i think you should have an islamic dream and not the "american dream"

The American dream seems to have worked well for millions of people; the "Islamist" dream is still exactly that: a dreaaaaam...

theres a difference when it comes to having an islamic dream and your "islamist" dream.. the word islamist was cooked up by islamophobic fools you seem to be afraid of your identity when it comes to being a muslim ,, the islamic dream is not a dream it is a reality which will come to be in fact its already taking shape ,,

look at the amount of people converting to islam every year in the states alone,, its not the BS terrorist ideaologies or the garbage the west wants you to believe ,, i feel sorry for you and how youre ashamed of your deen ,,

seriously think of your priorities man ,, your deen or your dunya

>>the word islamist was cooked up by islamophobic fools you seem to be afraid of<<

Exactly. I've asked this character who claims to be a Muslim several times what the definition of "Islamist" is. He wont answer in fear of exposing himself(more then he already has).

This is more like it. No need to waste any more time debating with the Forrest Gump fan club. Lets take a look at Khan's talking points here :

>>I have never seen people wearing flags on their ahrams. I have travelled to the haram, alhamdulillah several times. <<

I've seen both, with and without flags and collars. Do you check every persons ihram? YOu must have a lot of time on your hands. In which language did you engage the Turks? These guys are coming from a nation which is a repressive secular dictatorship and performing umrah and you've tearing your hair out over a flag on a collar? Stop misrepresenting already.

>>there is no room for allegiance to foreign nations. <<

Want to go tell that to the Israel first crowd, oh but that would be "anti-semetism" wouldn it? I guess you're going to play it safe and chase flags(which as ridhwaan pointed out are not worn out of nationalistic pride), kurtas, thobes and daishikis instead. Grow up.


>>I am happy to see that my work excites passion, debate and discussion<<

You wish. Your "work" and its faulty premise is being taken apart like a cheap deck of cards. Shameless self-promotion, lame diatribes and delusion of granduer are not "work."

>>How one responds is a measure of one's own character not that of what one is responding to.<<

Really...Is that what you had in mind when you were mocking Khaled Abu Fadel(another goon) about fatwas on gummy bears? Seriously do you think people have not read those shoddy articles of yours? "Muslim Kissinger" and election 2004 writings in particular come to mind. Nor is the subtlety of working for a neocon-lite "think tank" lost on those in the know.
Finally a masjid does NOT become an embassy because of a flag, and you cant prevent people from attending masajid based on your confused and sycophantic politiking.

DianaMW states:

>BTW, Dr. Muqtedar Khan is not irrelevant >at all. I listened to him address the >national convention of UMA in Bay area >last month and the national convention >of UMAA last week, he is dynamic and a >very profound thinker and he is making >an impact on how many American >Muslims think about Islam and their life >in America.

If you were at the UMAA "conference" then you do know that Muqtedar Khan has been blasted by large numbers of Shias - there are only a handful who defend him, and that too - they defend him personally, not the kind of garbage he has written. Alt.Muslim is supposedly non-sectarian, it atleast owes it to its readers why so many Shias are upset with one its frequent contributors.

see http://thenlightenment.whatheblog.com/?p=43 for more info.

and also

http://pmunadebate.blogspot.com

This article of Khan's while pretending to be non-nationalistic, is infact totally nationalistic - he wants to replace one nationalism with another - American Nationalism. If you go to the above sites, you can read a critique of this guy's writing... he is no scholar, that's for sure! No matter what those ignorant people at the Brookings Institute might think... they'll take anyone who says what they want to hear.

Thank you Dr. Muqtedar for such a dignified statement. Your calm and dignity in the face of insults is a true example of how a good Muslim should be.

publicdebate, I find your statement very strange. "He is no scholar.." Dr. Khan has a Ph.D. from Georgetown and has published several books and tons of articles and is quoted in news papers on a daily basis.

This very same article I found in Daily Times, a very important Pakistani newspaper, in Khaleej Times and in several American Muslim and mainstream newspapers!

Apparently both the Muslim World and the West admire his ideas.

A few, extremely rude people like Dr. M rant and rave about his work so what, who are they and who are you, two nobodies who hide their true identities and spread calumny anonymously -- a sure sign of cowardice.

Apparently even those who hate him, consider him extremely important to dedicate their websites to his work. Dr. M has been reading him religiously since the 1990s and your website publishes about him periodically.

I jsut read a wonderful article about him, apparently even heads of states consult him regularly! See for yourself: <http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060402/LIFE/604020320/1005>


I am proud to say that I am his fan, and you and Dr. M are his stalkers; fans and stalkers, that makes him a genuine American celebrity! [lol].

that makes him a genuine AMERICAN celebrity!"
see you said it yourself he is not an islamic celebrity he is an american celebrity, (to you) this is what he seems to want to be ,, here he speaks about nationalism in islam but at the same time hes worried about other nations feeling uncomfortable because of muslims, he clearly has feelings of nationalism for the countries he speaks of,, germany for instance and then he wants muslims to be nationalistic before they are islamic ,, he doesnt want a muslim german he wants GERMAN muslims and then he doesnt want allegiance to foreign nations he wants people to forget where they came from and who they are..

then on top of all this he speaks about nationalism in masjids.. there is a major malfunction in his article here ,, he needs to go back to his think tank and rethink what he is writing here ,,

deviated beliefs and people can creep up on you without you knowing ,, especially if you are ignorant about your deen ,,

and your work does not "excite passion, debate and discussion" i just cant sit by quietly and let people get deviated by ones "work"

sometimes when you keep up with certain peoples "work" it does not always mean you are a fan , sometimes you want to be able to beware of the contaminants in peoples "work"
anyone can write books and and publish letters and articles ,, the lucky ones are those who know what they are reading ...

as always i suggest for you and any others like you to educate yourself in the deen not by trying to get political with your american celebrity heroes ,,

diana youve got a big problem,, YOURE IGNORANT!!!

Br. Ridhwaan,

"To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you" [Quran 28:55].

Ma'assalama

Sr. Diana

I agree that immigrant muslims should integrate into their local communities but as you rightly pointed out, muslims in the west face very difficult social conditions. You also ignore the experiences and difficulties faced by the poor non-white immigrants in the US and the experience of African American muslims who are very American themselves. Yes muslims can be all they can be in the US but it seems as if there must be some compromise of Islamic identity. Muslims didn't make the nationalistic choices that you're pointing out. We were carved up into nations by the west (directly or indirectly) out of an Ummah that for the most part had its own means for cross cultural exchange.

On the matter of the Turks ... I think we are ignoring the experiences of a society thats been constantly defending muslim nations from a flood of anti muslim attacks for hundreds of years from the west. Turkey is an ugly nation state but its a nation state too and that is nationalism coming full circle in the west. How much difficulty must muslims be able to tolerate in a racist German or American society to be able to put down the only symbol of Islamic identity they carry? You're ignoring that the world is divided not only on muslim and non-muslim lines but along other socio-economic and post colonial lines as well. Be all you can be is only a result of Economic prosperity and not necessarily the pluralism you're touting as solely western.

It isn't difficult for me as a South African muslim to identify myself as different from a British or a Saudi muslim. I am born in South Africa. I pay taxes here and follow its societies basic rules. But when the state segregated communities .. we opposed the state along with my Xhosa brothers.

Culturally we are all different. You can't level at the feet of ordinary muslims the fault of OLD muslim INSTITUTIONS when it comes to being muslim in a non-muslim society. Most people cope and integrate quite well .. and in an inspiring way that calls non muslim people to the beauty of Islam as Gods religion, but there is a genuine antagonism to muslims that isn't derived from irresponsible behaviour of immigrants. Our lives are dual because we haven't created that balance between living the western paradigm as true Believers. But muslims must find most importantly an ethical voice in these societies before we rush and drop our muslim identities because we may then be dropping the Islamic truths on which those identities are built.

Besides, How can we be ìthe best of all nationsî,îneither of the east or the westî if we are unapologetically supportive of all things nation states stand for. Flags shouldn't be allowed on masjids in the first place because we would then be undermining the truly pluralistic nature of Islam. Thats not gonna happen if you ask muslims to take sides with nationhood even if that should at least be the place where we start, because that might not be an ethically sound base in the first place.

Many people are against the aims of globalisation as it is being pounded out by modern western governments. Don't ignore those peoples experience. I think Dr. Khan does muslims a great service and I respect his work an academic but I disagree with the establishment he sides with.

Oh .. and like everyone in my country .. I hate the national soccer team.

>>who are they and who are you, two nobodies who hide their true identities and spread calumny anonymously -- a sure sign of cowardice.<<

Yawn....and who exactly are you? Some starry eyed bimbo who cant debate points and simply regurjitates rubbish borrowed by from others? Cowardice, opportuism and stupidity all rolled in one. Dont like being treated like moron? Stop acting like one then.

>>am proud to say that I am his fan, and you and Dr. M are his stalkers; fans and stalkers, that makes him a genuine American celebrity! [lol].<<

A groupie.....what a buffoon. You sound more like a stalker. Unlike you I've given specific examples of Khan's inconsistencies and misinformation. You're very easily impressed by third rate polemics hence you must be a poorly educated.

>>diana youve got a big problem,, YOURE IGNORANT!!!<<

Sadly true. What does the "MW" in her name stand for? Mendacious whackjob? Anyway back to the topic at hand....quit making a mountain out of a mole hill....and for once I am in agreement with Ghulam(the Saudi soccer team does indeed suck).

Was there some comments deleted towards the beginning of this thread? I think it is the first time I have seen posts from DrM without name calling.

The question of authority is an important one. Most Muslims accept the authority of a doctor or a scientist of any discipline who has a PhD and experience in thier field. Has anyone ever heard of a Muslim saying, "But, you have an MD, but you're no Islamic scholar so I refuse the operation!" Yet, when it comes to social matters, some Muslims insist on only listening to religious scholars and not sociologists, political scientists and economists. Such a beleif that in social matters, only an "Islamic" scholar has authority has no merit. There was an imam in Chicago I learned about who was once young and thought he had all the answers for every social ill. As a freind related, "but then he had a string of people who beat thier spouses, committed adultery, cheated in school, all coming to him for help and he began to realize he was unequipped." Happily, that imam decided to get smart on social matters with knowledge from more than just the Quran and sunnah. His wife now has a degree in social work as well. Another imam I knew had a graduate degree in psychology and was quite effective as a community builder. Understanding the ideals of the Quran is essential knowledge, but social science knowledge is just as essential. Beleiving that a person can move people or a society towards those ideals without social science tools is foolhardy and will inevitably fail or at best, succeed with only a small fraction of people. Experience has shown this and it is indisputable.

One effect of listening to people who have no expertise in the tools of social science is retartded development. We see this all too well in the poor behavoir of some commentors here. Thus, it makes me wonder mightily: if people who claim to "defend" Islam refuse even a hadith which orders them to change thier poor behavoir, can we really take them seriously about "defending" Islam?? I think not.

>>f people who claim to "defend" Islam refuse even a hadith which orders them to change thier poor behavoir, can we really take them seriously about "defending" Islam?? I think not.<<

Look whos talking.

mr khan, in 1993 solingen germany,arsonists killed 2 women ,3 young girls and severely injured 7 others.next time when you r strolling the streets of berlin with a statesmen.ask them why killers of a hate crime get only 7 years in prison.

they didnt have turkish flag on the building,only dark skin and head scarves

omarg ,, youre one to talk about islam and accepting ahadeeth and so on.. you dont seem to be practicing what youre preaching there guy.....

you are going to talk about islam and the quran and the sunnah and that you need sociology and phsycology degrees to know how do to deal with people and their probles>??? adultery, domestic violence, cheating all this is looked after in the quran and sunnah,,, islam is perfect it teaches you how to clean ones self after you attend to your needs all the way to governement,, where are your statistics to your indisputable BS theory???
look how many muslims there are in the world today did they need the degrees and so on to become muslims?? the rightly guided sect of ahlussunnah and al jamaa'ah will be few in number,, for one reason lack of islam in the masses lives so no cigar on that one for you...

secondly your little story proves and compliments what i am saying,, lack of deen= committing sins... no sociologist or phsycologist will help you there... Allah guides whom he wills.

now i have just shown to everyone what lack of the deen in your life does it makes your development retarded this is what you seem to suffering from..

you can remedy it by implementing the deen in your life and not trying to please uncle tome every second ,, hah!! im not even a sociologist or phycologist and i gave you a solution to your problem.

Another thing that I think is important is that as muslims, if we believe that "Islam is a strictly monotheistic religion and nationalism in its extreme form begins to subvert the very idea of One God", should we necessarily view people in terms of the national identity only. Can we not relate more to the humanity that binds us with other people then the country they owe allegiance to? I believe that the average person who calls himself American has less allegiance to his state than he has to his humanity.

That said .. it may NOT be in a nations interest to align ourselves with its foreign policy, but if we used the democratic structures that are present and the civil society bodies that exist to emphasize a balanced and humane view, we may be being more loyal to that nation than might first be thought. Because with that we create more positive growth within the society itself.

Not to disagree with you Omarg about the need for more intense understanding and a deeper respect for scientific and objective models of observation (not every person can be a judge and not every person can be a soldier), but Sociology and Economics are fickle "sciences" that are subject to manipulation.


>>you can remedy it by implementing the deen in your life and not trying to please uncle tome every second ,, hah!! im not even a sociologist or phycologist and i gave you a solution to your problem.

I don't want saints to frame economic policies without consultation with economists. I dont want judges to create precedent or polticians to legislate without understanding that impact and taking ownership of the result in the "dunya". Its easy to hide behind deen and Allah when you're hurling insults and accusing people of every crime short of Kufr. And thats just as meaningless as brandishing titles of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah - for that is a title no human can give or take.

If what OmarG suffers from is a knowledge gap then bridge it with some knowledge. If human beings can't learn from each other then there is no basis for dawah and hence no basis for Islaam. As muslims we should stand up to the challenge of truthful exchange in a manner that befits us - that is what Ahlus Sunnah means to me for that is for me the way of our Nabi (S)