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altmuslim this week - august 25, 2008 - This week, Pakistan instability in the wake of Musharraf's resignation, Sherry Jones speaks to us about Jewel of Medina, and protest boats in Gaza teach us all a new lesson.
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editor's blog
Zero tolerance for Muslim participation in politics? - The very people who fight to push Muslims out of the public square are also the ones clamoring for our communities to get out in the streets and prove our loyalty to the US. If only they could see the contradiction for themselves. (August 6, 2008)

Geeking out at SXSW Interactive - There is no better place to mingle with other geeks than at South by Southwest (SXSW) Interactive, one of the largest Internet-focused conferences in the country, where we presented a panel discussion on "Online Extremism - And The Muslims Who Fight It" (March 20, 2008)

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PODCASTS
altmuslim review 029 - A vibrant Muslim media could have an opportunity to restore balance to the Muslim public image - if it can get on its feet. In this episode, we explore the state of the Muslim media. Also, an interview with the creator of "Muslim Cafe", Navid Akhtar. (July 5, 2008)

altmuslim review 028 - Where in the world is altmuslim? This month, we report on the halal industry from the World Halal Forum in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and from Milan, Italy where we speak to Italian Muslims about the challenges they face. (May 20, 2008)

ELSEWHERE
Shahed will be participating in a panel discussion, Sourcing Islam, at the Religion Newswriters Association conference in Washington, DC (September 20, 2008)

Rushdie is no believer in free speech - Irfan Yusuf, The Age (Australia) (August 8, 2008)

Shahed will be participating in the Progressive Revival group blog at BeliefNet (July 29, 2008)

Western civilization? What a good idea that would be - Irfan Yusuf, New Zealand Herald (July 22, 2008)

Shahed will be speaking about the role of the Web in promoting Muslim civic engagement at the ISNA South Central Zone Conference in Houston, Texas (July 5, 2008)

Shahed will give a presentation, Shaping the Public Debate About Muslims, at the Center for American Studies in Rome, Italy (May 12, 2008)

Zahed will be a guest on BBC Radio 4's "Sunday" programme speaking about religious podcasting (May 4, 2008)

Rafia and Shahed will be guests on South Africa's Channel Islam, speaking about interpreting Islam in the modern world (March 28 & April 4, 2008)

Shahed will be speaking at the CAMP International Leadership Summit in Princeton, NJ (March 29, 2008)

Shahed will be a guest on Radio Tahrir, airing on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York, speaking about the Muslim block vote (April 1, 2008)

Shahed will be appearing on The Agenda with Steve Paikin for a recap of altmuslim's SXSW panel "Online Extremism" (March 26, 2008)

altmuslim is hosting a panel discussion at 2008 SXSW Interactive, "Online Extremism (And The Muslims Who Fight It)" (March 9, 2008)

Count blessings, then tally taxes - Hesham Hassaballa, Chicago Tribune (February 24, 2008)

'Busharraf' gets the people's message - Irfan Yusuf, New Zealand Herald (February 22, 2008)

Shahed will be participating in the US-Islamic World Forum in Doha, Qatar (February 17-19, 2008)

Sharia an unlikely threat - Irfan Yusuf, stuff.co.nz (February 13, 2008)

Converts' dangerous pull towards extremism - Irfan Yusuf, Sydney Morning Herald (February 7, 2008)

Safiyyah will be appearing on The Agenda with Steve Paikin for a debate on "Today's Young Muslim Women" (February 1, 2008)

Sidelining the loud-mouthed cultural warriors - Irfan Yusuf, Canberra Times (January 10, 2008)

Safiyyah will be guest writing at the TVO website offering commentary on the two-part TV series Britz (February 2008)

IN THE NEWS
National publisher kills Spokane journalist’s book - [Amanullah] sent e-mails to about 200 graduate students in Islamic studies, telling them of Spellberg's "frantic" call and asking if they had heard about the novel. "What I got back was a collective shrug of the shoulders," says Amanullah. "The thing that is surreal for me is that here you had a non-Muslim write a book, and you had a non-Muslim complain about it, and a non-Muslim publisher pull the book." (August 20, 2008)

Self censoring Muslims - "But Amanullah says he never wanted the book pulled. 'I'm upset the book wasn't published,' he said, 'not because I agree or disagree with the book.' For him, 'I don't want to be in the position where we are stifling speech. Preemptive censorship is not in our interest. That's worse than even censorship. We're not going to silence our way out of problems.'" (August 12, 2008)

You still can’t write about Muhammad - "But Ms. Spellberg wasn't a fan of Ms. Jones's book. On April 30, Shahed Amanullah, a guest lecturer in Ms. Spellberg's classes and the editor of a popular Muslim Web site, got a frantic call from her. "She was upset," Mr. Amanullah recalls. He says Ms. Spellberg told him the novel "made fun of Muslims and their history," and asked him to warn Muslims." (August 5, 2008)

Why the silence? - "Both reactionary religion and militant secularism are on the rise, with both displaying a rigid certainty and a desire for power that will do nothing to benefit society. In this context, it is vital that people with open-minded faith speak up and demonstrate alternatives. [altmuslim.com has] set many good examples in this regard." (January 8, 2008)

Does the US tolerate anti-Muslim speech? - "You see more hostility towards Muslims now than you did the year after 9/11," says Shahed Amanullah, editor of a Muslim web-zine, AltMuslim.com. He and other observers point to America's failure to capture Osama bin Laden, the continuing difficulties in Iraq and Afghanistan, and news of terrorist plots overseas as reasons why many Americans feel hostile towards Muslims. (December 7, 2007)

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Progressive Islam
Lessons learned from the PMU experiment
Both supporters and detractors of the PMU would do well to ponder its successes and failures in order to steer future endeavors down a more balanced path.
The Progressive Muslim Union is going through a rough patch. A series of defections of prominent supporters that started in July (Muqtedar Khan, Michael Knight, Laury Silvers, and others) culminated in August with the collective resignation - accompanied by some acrimonious public exchanges within PMU's board - of Omid Safi, Hussein Ibish, and Sara Eltantawi, three of the PMU's four founders (only MuslimWakeUp! editor Ahmed Nassef remains). And a new (rival?) website, ProgressiveIslam.org, featuring former PMU stalwarts has been launched. The Progressive Muslim movement seems to be splintering, if not crumbling before our eyes.

As someone who sympathizes with many of the organization's stated goals and as someone who's sometimes has occasionally found himself defending the work of Progressive Muslims - not every charge lobbed at them is fair and there are some very good, sincere Muslims involved - I've observed PMU's recent travails with great sadness. I have to admit, though, that this sadness isn't really for PMU per se, but rather for the activists and causes that will have to deal with the fallout from the latest twist in the increasingly unseemly saga of Progressive Islam in North America (which Sheila Musaji has summarized admirably in her hard-hitting recent article "MWU and PMU: Progressive Voices?" in The American Muslim).

PMU's protean and seemingly relativistic approach towards Islam and its unwillingness to unambiguously affirm transcendent values in Islam and the normative authority of Quran and Sunnah have always distressed me as a Muslim and prevented me from identifying with the organization, even when it was alone in tackling problems and issues that I felt strongly about.

I've never believed in "Progressive Islam", either. Not because "progressive" is a dirty word, but because its principles are already at the core of Islam. Contrary to all the historically and philosophically illiterate rubbish one hears about the sinister implications of the term, there is nothing inherently secular or anti-Islamic about progressivism. To the contrary, many of the most laudable advances in American politics and society that Muslims view as in keeping with Islamic values (e.g., civil rights, economic justice, the welfare safety net, child labor laws, women's rights, environmentalism) are the result of the dreaded Progressive political tradition. While it's true that this tradition is not consciously grounded in religious faith, its objectives of alleviating suffering and bringing about equality are ones that any Muslim should applaud. (Besides, who doesn't believe in some kind of "progress", and why is it so hard for some people to consider the possibility that a Muslim "progressive" might consider the pinnacle of progress to be nothing more than living up to Allah's message and doing good?)

My biggest frustration is how PMU's monopolization of the discussion of Islamic reform and its horrendous PR missteps have not only made the word "progressive" radioactive in the Muslim community, but have put activists and reformers on the defensive. I mourn the fact that activists now have to devote so much energy to explaining what they're not rather than making a cause for much needed reform.

The activists I know would sooner admit to being ax murderers than "Progressive Muslims". How did this happen? How did the Progressive Muslim movement lose credibility with so many Muslims who would've normally been predisposed to enthusiastically support them?

There was a time where I certainly had high hopes for this nascent movement. In the beginning, MuslimWakeUp.com was an innovative and promising venture, a truly exciting voice for reform and Muslim debate that was leveraging technology to create a virtual community and communication channel for liberals and reformers around the globe. By the time I got the chance to contribute an article to MWU in August 2004, I had already begun to feel grave misgivings about MWU's direction due to the advent of the "Sex and the Umma" column, but I hoped this was an aberration. Unfortunately, that did not prove to be the case, and PMU/MWU became increasingly fringe, confrontational and seemingly out of touch with its community, reveling in vulgarity and puerility, passing off lazy secularist slogans as Islamic reform, and gratuitously offending normal Muslim sensibilities. Soon thereafter in 2004, I gave up on PMU as a credible voice for Islamic reform, even if I sympathized with some its efforts.

I don't think it was PMU's string of PR missteps or the influence of any one individual - considerable criticism has been leveled many of those resigning at the outspoken leftist activist Tarek Fatah - that did it in, but something far more fundamental, its trying to be, if you'll forgive the expression, "all things to all men". In its effort to forge a grand uber-coalition of leftists and activists, PMU refused to apply even the most minimal doctrinal litmus tests to its leaders and representatives. As a result, PMU (here I use the term loosely to refer to more than its board of directors) runs the gamut from hard-line secularists to fuzzy New Agers to normal Muslims who just want reform in the community. To some, this diversity is undoubtedly PMU's crowning glory, but to me it a sign of an organization lacking substance or vision.

On the one hand, I want to make some allowances for PMU in this regard, as I realize that they are trying to do something extraordinarily difficult, namely updating the Muslim community's norms of tolerance to address thorny contemporary realities. For example, in our era of fragmented globalized identities, postmodernism, and widespread secularism, the idealistic assumptions about a Muslim's identity and practice found in Islamic tradition do not always correspond to the reality of contemporary Muslims. Historians might debate whether the Ummah is more doctrinally diverse or less practicing today than in the past, but it's safe to say that modern Muslims must face unheard of pluralism when dealing with their fellow Muslims. The days when most Muslims lived in a community in which a single madhab, culture, language, race, or even denomination predominate and block out other competing Islamic paradigms are long gone. Also, however one views or explains this phenomenon (i.e., secularization, decadence, modernism, materialism, etc.), it is a sociological fact that a significant segment of contemporary Muslim populations is made up of "cultural Muslims". There are, unfortunately, large numbers of Muslims today who do not accept the need to practice Islam as laid out in Islamic tradition and fiqh. From a traditional perspective, they are not normal Muslims, but it is no less problematic to categorize them as non-Muslims, as they have not renounced Islam and they clearly are part of modern Islamic civilization in some meaningful sense.

To PMU's credit - and unlike many mainstream Muslim organizations - it has tried to grapple with this conundrum and create a space where Muslims who do not conform to mainstream expectations (however legitimate most such expectations may be) or who are struggling with their faith can participate without fear of knee-jerk takfir or harassment by self-righteous vigilantes.

Nonetheless, I think that PMU has allowed the pendulum of tolerance to swing to far in the opposite direction, to the point where it's not always clear what makes the organization "Muslim". It is certainly laudable to ensure that Muslims are allowed to make their own moral choices without fear of reprisals from the community - that's a considerably less often noted consequence of the Quranic dictum, "There is no compulsion of religion." Religious freedom should apply no less to Muslims than non-Muslims! - but this can't come at the expense of devaluing fundamental values and norms about which there is no debate within Islam or at the expense of promoting radical Antinomianism that makes all religious practices and prohibitions seem superfluous. All organizations must define not only what they believe in, but what they do not believe in. A "Muslim" organization cannot formulate a coherent message, much less promote any mission for reform, if it is stretched to accommodate the whims and sensitivities of every dissident, radical and New Age dabbler.

I also fear that PMU has done some real damage to the causes it aspires to promote. I mourn the newfound ability of reactionaries to tar any person who tries to talk about, say, the need for women khateebs - an infinitely more important objective than the PMU crowd's almost bourgeois obsession with women imams - as secularized elites who are aren't serious about Islam. Sure, this reflex to dismiss all reform has always been present-tradition, like patriotism, is the first refuge of the scoundrel-but now that PMU has made the whole Muslim Left look libertine and trite, I believe that the old slur carries a new sting.

Activists in the trenches in their communities working to get something positive done not because it's "progressive" but because that's what they believe Allah (swt) requires of them are the ones who will have to clean up the mess left behind by PMU. The sad thing is that they will probably have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, distancing themselves entirely from all things "progressive" rather than just the Progressive Muslim Union. Which is unfortunate, given the numerous worthy causes that Progressive Muslims have embraced and associated themselves with.

Still, my hope is that lefty Muslim activists and reformers will learn some lessons from the PMU saga:

Tie your camel. Activism requires concrete plans and specific objectives. That requires establishing shared goals, objectives and commitments. Assuming "likeminded" people will all naturally work together and ultimately agree on long-term policy is na�ve and utopian, and the Muslim community sure doesn't need any more utopians.

Think small. Activists should focus on ad hoc coalitions and campaigns that get things done on the local level as opposed to more overarching organizations. It's the work that counts. Grand initiatives tend to be heavy on ideology and media buzz, but light on substance.

Avoid high-profile media campaigns against the Muslim community. True reform results from dialogue, not high profile media campaigns, which I think do more harm than good. Given the way the modern American media work, major media campaigns on sensitive topics affecting besieged, misunderstood minorities reinforce stereotypes, alarmism, and exaggerations rather than promote communication or serious debate. Nuance, balance, and constructive criticism don't sell newspapers-screaming headlines do. That is the tragedy of the modern media.

Thus, the most lasting legacy of Asra Nomani's mosque ambush campaign - which made mosques the targets of "direct action", which is usually reserved for military bases, polluting factories, and sinister embassies as opposed to houses of worship - in the final analysis might well be reinforcing sensationalistic popular images of mosques as dens of extremism and oppression rather than opening up mosques to women. In a post-9/11 world, showing up with a camera crew at a mosque you've never set foot in before and bullying your way in to stage triumphant photo-ops seems unlikely to do much for interfaith relations or consciousness-raising.

Embrace uniformity. Again, "big tent" organizations sound great in theory, but in practice they're paralyzed by philosophical differences and contradictory objectives. Small, goal-oriented groups of like-minded people are far more likely to get things done and evolve in a healthy direction.

Unto you, your religion; unto me, mine. Finally and most importantly, religious people and secular people can and should collaborate on many things, but religious reform is certainly not one of them. Muslims of all shapes and sizes - practicing and non-practicing, religious and secular, orthodox and radical - can collaborate fruitfully on an infinite variety of worthy initiatives, from social justice to the environment, but a coherent spiritual vision cannot be formulated by a group that lacks common underlying assumptions about the ultimate purpose to life and the place of religion in society. In these domains, secularist and religionists do not, and cannot, speak the same language - their worldviews are ultimately incommensurable. People of conscience from both camps must agree to disagree on matters of faith, refrain from demonizing one another for these inevitable and natural differences, and remember the many more areas that unites them.

Looking on the bright side, many of the worthy causes for which MWU and PMU were once lonely voices crying in the wilderness have now gone mainstream. Today, concerns about discrimination against women, closed-mindedness and obscurantism, prejudices against non-Muslims, takfir and sectarianism towards other Muslims, and racial prejudices are no longer the domain of leftist Muslims, as they have been adopted to a significant extent by mainstream Muslim organizations. (I think the jury's still out on whether PMU has ultimately contributed positively towards these developments, as the ambiguous legacy of Nomani's campaign illustrates, but that is a whole other discussion.)

There are many lessons to be learned from the development of the Progressive Muslim Union. Supporters and detractors alike would do well to ponder both its successes and failures in order to steer future endeavors down a more balanced path.

Svend White is an IT consultant and Muslim activist in Washington, DC.  His blog is at http://akramsrazor.typepad.com


Islamic Relief: A 4-Star Charity

21 COMMENTS ON THIS ARTICLE



Salams,

Thanks to Svend for this analysis. Insha'allah, what is good in the progressive movement will succeed and gain in strength for the sake of the whole Muslim community.

If people are interested in seeing some of the directions that progressive islam is taking after the changes in PMU, go to Ilan Bashir's and my website: [url=http://www.progressiveislam.org]http://www.progressiveislam.org[/url]

We have started with 3 major projects and are building them up slowly, so that they last and carry on.

The Blogs project is for an array of Muslims to share their views on various issues: From islamist, conservative, centrist, progressive, cultural muslim, to heterodox we are keeping the conversation open.

The Human Rights Project is a wiki offering resources, information, and documentation of human rights offenses and issues in the Muslim world.

The Women's Health Project is a wiki offering information and resources for Muslim women on reproductive health issues. We will be expanding it, God willing, to cover other health issues and more general topics of interest to women.

We are starting a forum for the discussion of Science Fiction and Religion, insha'allah. So many Muslims seem to be Sci Fi geeks! Maybe we can talk about some of the hard stuff through alternate realities. Maybe we can all just get to know each other through being geeky fans. Whatever works.

We want our site to be a place of open exchange for all Muslims.

Please check us out and take our niyya seriously. We are there to work with the community at large using the technical resources available to us. Write us and let us know what you think. Leave comments on our blogs. Our writers are all open to engagement. (You can even call our resident heterodox blogger Mike Knight after 9PM and tell him you hate him if you want, he's got his phone number posted on the site. It really is his phone number).

[url=http://www.progressiveislam.org]http://www.progressiveislam.org[/url]

salams,

Laury Silvers


Salaams

This is a potent analysis, but some of the statements essentialise aspects of MWU/PMU and its supporters using rather simplistic and derisory terminology.

For example, 'Sex and the Ummah' included one or two laudible pieces. Without meaning to blow my own trumpet, my 'Gay UK' article was neither vulgar nor puerile.

I am probably one of the 'new agers' mentioned here, but on my road back to an Islam more recognisably mainstream -having converted into a pack of Wahhabi wolves and then ran away screaming - I found MWU a pleasant stopping off point, a place where I could get my act together and ask awkard questions without fear of sanctimonious judgement. I will always be grateful to Ahmed Nassef for that.

I believe pre-PMU MWU itself was in many ways a positive and dynamic force, until it got a little too bog for its boots. The subsequent fall of MWU/PMU may indeed be partly a failure of focus and its clumsy use of the media. But equally, it was a failure in its avowed humanism.

Wasalaam

The Muslim Anarchist


Nice article. Pro-regressive Muslims I think, shot themselves in the foot long ago. When you're going to define the criteria for being a Muslim based on cultural and assimilationist defeatist politics, you're not going to be taken seriously.
Another area of concern is the comfort zone between them and neoconservatives, marxists and other extremist groups who mean the Muslim community no good. The most recent example being, the controversy over Islamic arbitration courts in Canada. Their use of lies, fear mongering and outright hostility to the wishes of Canadian Muslims was very intructive in this.


Salaam aleikum,

couldn't agree more M, nothing more than domestic house negroes exclaiming and pontificating on using non-issues (women leading salat, 'halal' pornography, and endorsement of zinna and homosexuality) as "virtures" all the while trying to please a colonial slavemaster by trying to water down and secularize Islam enough so that it becomes subservient to the needs of U.S. foreign policy and preserves "stability" and the status quo....

g


Oh boy. The neo-traditionalist/anti-progresssive sloganeer da'ees are here ... to RE-POLARIZE the debate after it's been articulated in a balanced fashion, to take from the article selectively and to symbolically dance over the corpse of the progressives yet again.


>>Oh boy. The neo-traditionalist/anti-progresssive sloganeer da'ees are here ... to RE-POLARIZE the debate after it's been articulated in a balanced fashion, to take from the article selectively and to symbolically dance over the corpse of the progressives yet again.<<


Actually Shan, I've always seen myself as a Muslim, because I strive to practice Islam as best as I can with the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) as my role model. I dont see myself as a "neo-traditionalist" as you label me, and those who oppose the so called progressive Muslims, most of whom have attempted to polarize the community through dirty pool tactics which gambino and I summarized earliar. At the end of the day, its the facts and figures that matter, neither of which are in favor of their agenda. You can however, label a field negro...thats a label I'll gladly accept.


"To PMU's credit - and unlike many mainstream Muslim organizations - it has tried to grapple with this conundrum and create a space where Muslims who do not conform to mainstream expectations (however legitimate most such expectations may be) or who are struggling with their faith can participate without fear of knee-jerk takfir or harassment by self-righteous vigilantes."

The last sentence in the quote above is implying that mainstream Muslim organizations do participate in knee-jerk takfir and harassment. I have NEVER witnessed or heard of any takfir done by mainstream Muslim organizations. Other than Sulman Rushdie I don't think there is a soul who has been branded as a Kafir by any mainstream Islamic Organizations. If you don't find pluralism within organizations like CAIR, ISNA and even ICNA then I think you are not looking hard enough. The fundamental issues which people beleive to have with mainstream organizations are based on perception and rarely ever on experience. If they are looking for individuals who want to apply Islam Contemporarily without infringing upon Islamic dicatates they can find plenty of them within mainstream organizations.

Ws

Azeem


>>with the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) as my role model.

Well, your style of confrontation and talking down to people doesn't quite represent how the Prophet acted towards people. I hope that'll change...


Well said Azeem. CAIR, ISNA, I think, have traditionally taken the high road when it comes to slander pro-regressives have hurled at them. I think its time they end their silence to lay to rest many of the false, and increasingly bizarre statements by mwu and its entourage. Like these :

"CAIR ISNA etc are all conservative"

Really? How it that? Since when does defending the civil rights of Muslims constitute a conservative practice? Providing free legal services to Muslims fighting discrimination in court is conservative? How about providing libraries with Islamic literature? Educating the community about their rights? How about distributing over 20000 free Qurans? Oh yeah, very conservative of them to do so. Interestingly enough both neoconservatives and pro-regressive echo each others propoganda when it comes to CAIR and ISNA....I guess these groups must be doing something right to enrage the extremists.

"These organizations are run by immigrants with cultural baggage"

Guess what? Ahmed Nassef, Omid Safi, Muqtedar Khan, Asra Nomani, Monis Rahman(Naseeb CEO), Tarek Fatah, Mona Eltahawy etc are ALL immgrants themselves. The difference being one set of immigrants is not willing to make Islam more hugable and user friendly for those who mean the community no good. This is what they mean by "cultural baggage." Yes ofcourse praying 5 times a day, fasting in Ramadan, giving zakat, respecting the differences of genders is "cultural," whereas publishing soft pornography, belittling respected scholars and launching nonsensical tirades against "neo-salafis," is not. There are several other points I could go into but you really cant make any sense of their propaganda, because the hypocrisy is so obvious and disgusting.


Salaams

Many of the above comments illustrate the tragic downside of the whole PMU/MWU debacle. Post PMU, fundamentalists (and I use the term as per Fazlur Rahman) can now employ the term 'progressive' to deride anyone who challenges their hegemonic hold on Islam, be it Farid Esack, Tariq Ramadan or anyone calling themselves a 'Muslim feminist'.

But on the upside, I suspect Muslims are getting a little tired of the scorn and hate which so typifies fundamentalist PMU/MWU vs fundamentalist discourse.

Truth is a product of calm, compassionate, clear thinking. Insha Allah, that is the way forward.

Wasalaam

The Muslim Anarchist


>>Well, your style of confrontation and talking down to people doesn't quite represent how the Prophet acted towards people. I hope that'll change...Well, your style of confrontation and talking down to people doesn't quite represent how the Prophet acted towards people. I hope that'll change...<<

Thats almost entertaining. I dont see anything wrong with voicing my views, even its to the detriment of groups and individuals who have posted patently false and slanderous invective against Islam and Muslims. And I dont you are in a position morally, or otherwise to lecture me about the life style of the Prophet(saw), I dont recall him joining an expedition of kafirs to slay innocent men, woman and children.


And see, there you go again behind a computer screen, judging people on who and what they are and using that to disqualify thier opinions. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Its fine and even productive to intelligently critique policy, events, and beleifs, but you go further and act as if the person you are talking to is an object and represents all that you hate. And, fact is, my military service ended, so I predict that you'll find something else to criticize me as a person. Try hard to stick to ideas and leave off making Muslims look like seething potheads.


>>And see, there you go again behind a computer screen, judging people on who and what they are and using that to disqualify thier opinions.<<

Pro-regressives do that all the time. Join their mailing to see how they responded to this particular article. As I stated earliar, they've shot they've shot themselves in the foot several times by taking positions which are not hostile to the beliefs of Muslim, but also of much import to some of the worst Islamophobic elements of society. I dont see the need to repeat myself here.

>>Its fine and even productive to intelligently critique policy, events, and beleifs, but you go further and act as if the person you are talking to is an object and represents all that you hate.<<

I'll go as far as they do. If they want to drink alcohol in their homes, I dont care. If they go on FOX news and say Muslims need to consume alcohol, then we have problem. I dont see anything wrong in taking an individual or group to task based on its activities and statements, theirs being, fear mongering, lying and misrepresenting the hard work of any Muslim organization not in line ideologically with them. I dispise such tactics, and individuals who employ them.

>>And, fact is, my military service ended, so I predict that you'll find something else to criticize me as a person. <<

Actually I didnt know you were in the military until Gambino pointed it out in another thread. Normally I would not care...but given the current activities of the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan, with some very very henious war crimes which would for sure would get an ordinary citizen put away for life, I think it was rather crass of you to comment on the applicability of the life of Prophet Muhammed(saw). Nothing personal, but when you are part of an outfit some of the mud is bound to get on you as well.

>>Try hard to stick to ideas and leave off making Muslims look like seething potheads.<<

If you want see potheads, join the PMUNA mailing list. Some of the comments there are no doubt the product of controlled substances. Moreover, you may want to save of this advice for some of your friends who are taking some rather grissly pictures of dead and dismembered Iraqis and posting them online for free access to pornography. Yet these criminals will get a free pass.


>>some of your friends who are taking some rather grissly pictures of dead and dismembered Iraqis

Man, you just don't stop. Again, you're personalizing a distant event which neither of us has any control over. And, you're using it to associate me with people I've never met and with deeds I've never done or even witnessed or even heard about until this. That is a severe flaw in logic. Yet, this is a continuation of your mistaken thinking in diverting the topic to the PMUNA list, of which I have never been a member, when in fact, it is your aggressive writing towards people that I'm calling you on. Instead of explaining yourself, or gasp!, apologizing for personally attacking people, you point out how others are more messed up. What's up with that?



>Man, you just don't stop. Again, you're >personalizing a distant event which neither >of us has any control over.

funny, some of your christian/atheist brothers do this all the time when calling all Muslims 'terrorists", this is why they feel nothing when torturing Iraqis at Abu Gharaib nor photographing them after they are dead.

>And, you're using it to associate me with >people I've never met and with deeds I've >never done or even witnessed or even >heard about until this.

again, also ironic considering this is your modus operandi on nearly every post, can't answer the message with any rational proofs from Quran and sunnah (as any Muslim should) so just go after the messenger.

>That is a severe flaw in logic. Yet, this is a >continuation of your mistaken thinking in >diverting the topic to the PMUNA list, of >which I have never been a member, when >in fact, it is your aggressive writing >towards people that I'm calling you on.

Please try looking in the mirror before you "call out" anybody. That right comes with credability and education, two things you are in extremely short possession of.


>>Man, you just don't stop. Again, you're personalizing a distant event which neither of us has any control over. And, you're using it to associate me with people I've never met and with deeds I've never done or even witnessed or even heard about until this.That is a severe flaw in logic.<<

Hold it right there, never said you were involved in any such specific acts. I said you were a member of an institution which is committing some extremely henious and barbaric acts which would make Jeffrey Dahmer proud. Why is the US government scrambling to block any release of more torture pics? What have they got to hide?
How is it logical for a Muslim to be part of an army wrecking havoc on Muslims? Its one thing if you are part of a peace keeping group, but this is just indefensible. You've also voiced your opposition to "muslim nationalism," yet arent you being nationalistic by serving in the US army? This is not only a flaw in logic, but hypocrisy.

>>when in fact, it is your aggressive writing towards people that I'm calling you on. Instead of explaining yourself, or gasp!, apologizing for personally attacking people, you point out how others are more messed up. What's up with that?<<

If you consider my writing "aggressive," you should be mad as hell at what they write on mwu/mpu. You should be mad as hell every time they attack Muslim organizations who dont share their "beliefs." Or is that ok since you are comfortable with what they write? I'm the one calling them out for many such deliberate deceptions, and I will not apologize or curtail my criticism of them as long as they keep up with their falsehoods. If you think I'm going to be silent when the likes of "Michael Muhammed Khight" disrespects the Prophet (saw), you've got another tghing coming.


>>I'm the one calling them out for many such deliberate deceptions,

Fine, write an article about it or something; Musaji did just that and ended up stimulating much-needed discussions and plus, looked like a rational person who can engage others on senstitive subjects without alienating them. On the other hand, ganging up on BB commentors who may or may not agree with you on the topic at hand doesn't help your image and it does nothing to make alt.muslim a place where people can *safely* develop thier own opinions.

So, I do agree with the general the aims of MWU and I do feel that our organizations leave alot to be desired. You can see this on several of the articles I wrote there. Its a red herring to supress dissent just because we have ill-wishers out there. But, I'm also willing to work as a sympathetic critic as Musaji mentions. In the end, we're all still Muslims and perhaps more importantly, we're all Allah's creation and its wrong to attack people personally for thier opinions. So, express yourself, criticize, go ahead, its a free country, but don't bash people if they don't / can't / won't see things the way you do.


>>On the other hand, ganging up on BB commentors <<

Gangup on who? You havent been reading have you? Seems to me, you're the one who is "ganging up" on those of us who are against the PMU.
This is becoming overly repetitive, despite numerous points made over and over again. I stand by my critique and will not in any way or form back off from exposing these grafted snakes.


>>On the other hand, ganging up on BB commentors who may or may not agree with you on the topic at hand doesn't help your image and it does nothing to make alt.muslim a place where people can *safely* develop thier own opinions.>>

I agree with OmarG. These bullying tactics of filling up message boards are becoming tiresome. Not to mention repetitive.


It's interesting to me that many of the Muslim reformers who are part of the PMU are acknowledged atheists and agnostics. They are often compared (mostly by outside sources, to be fair) to modern Martin Luthers; people seem to forget that while Martin Luther was vehemently against many of the corrupt practices of the medieval Church, he was devout in his love of God. When the latter-day masthead of the PMU was peopled with individuals who lacked the most fundamental quality necessary to reach and change the wider Muslim community--that is, belief in God--is it any wonder the movement foundered? Was it ever going to succeed?

I know there were and are some very spiritual people on board; unfortunately, they don't seem to be the ones flying the plane.


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