On the face of it, the recent brochure (.pdf) about women's rights in the mosque has caused much excitement, particularly among those who have been pushing for years for increased equity in mosque operations and facilities. The call for women to be in the main prayer hall along with men, backed by major Muslim organizations, seems to be a difficult pill for many conservative mosques to swallow. However, a closer read of the document shows that there is a great deal of wiggle room that allows male-run mosques to obey the letter of the law without ceding much control or significantly improving the situation of women in North American mosques today.

Women's speech at the mosque?

The document addresses the near-total absence of women's voices in the mosque by calling for the inviting of women scholars to hold seminars, which on the face of it seems to be a good thing. But the intention of this document becomes clearer with the subsequent call for women to "introduce speakers, offer opening and closing dua or prayer during educational programs, moderate panels, and direct question and answer sessions" - in short, do everything but address the combined body of the mosque in an authoritative manner. But what about the call for women scholars to hold seminars in the mosque? Seminars, by definition, are optional affairs that are attended only by those who wish to participate. In a more conservative mosque, this means that women scholars will come and give a seminar to the women of the mosque - hardly a dramatic change from the situation today. And in a collective, "non-seminar" setting, the best that Muslim women can hope for is to introduce the main (male) speaker.

Appointed or elected?

A Response To Comments On The "Women-Friendly Mosques" Brochure - I very much appreciate your positive responses to the mosque access brochure, and for highlighting its positive potential to play a transformative role, insha Allah. Also, I am grateful for your support on this issue of women's inclusion. Below is some additional background information about brochure that I think important for you to know. (Read more...)

A discussion of mosque governance that does not use the word "elect" and "women" in the same sentence cannot be taken seriously. Sure, the document calls for women to be "represented on governing boards" with "at least two seats... designated to be held for women." But which women? Is it for people to be elected fairly by the mosque population, even if it makes the men of the Board uncomfortable? Or - as this document suggests - it is for the men to appoint those women who agree with their style of leadership and will preserve the status quo? The situation at conservative mosques suggests that this is the path that will be taken, absolving the board of any accusation of bias because they are following the letter of the "women-friendly mosques" declaration. Where does this leave women? Free to use "suggestion boxes" and "bulletin boards" to appeal to the mosque leadership, with no guarantee of change.

Separate and unequal?

The issue of women's space in the mosque is probably the most sensitive point for pro-women activists, and has most visibly illustrated the problem of gender inequity. This document, while allowing for women to co-exist in the main hall with men, leaves many unanswered questions. Can women enter through the main entrance? It appears not, as the document calls for a safe (presumably separate, not necessarily equal) entrance exclusively for women. It allows for women to be in the same musalla as men, yet says nothing about barriers that can be erected between the genders. Of course, conservative mosques will erect a floor-to-wall barrier within the main room, and declare with great satisfaction that they have complied with the "women-friendly mosques" document, when in fact they have created yet another separate space, only this one isn't in the basement anymore.

This document is worded in such a careful way as to allow current ultraconservative mosques to operate as-is, with only minor changes. Unless our institutions are willing to come clean, with clear, unambigious language that leaves no room for opponents of change to wiggle free, documents such as this will only serve to clear the conscience of those troubled by accusations of inequity, without changing anything on the ground.

Samirah, I know and I'm sorry for subjecting you and other readers to this. I just want my daughter to grow up in a masjed that treats her alot better than it treated her mother...

>>you've done a mighty fine job of taking over the comments section and loosing the point of the article in wasted insults and wayward complaints.<<

Actually this happened when General G decided to pull the MWU style of debate. Read it yourself.

>>Not in a musty basement, not behind the feet of men, not on a linty dirty floor covered with a screen where we can't see or hear the imam...but in a good solid holy place.<<

I agree. So what have you done at your local masjid to raise this issue ? And really is this the only issue you are so passionate about ? The cavalier disregard for other issues raises concerns. We had a problem with snow in our parking lot and the masjid couldnt afford to have it removed, so we got some brothers together and shovelled it ourselves...we didnt go running to the Islamophobic media complaining about how our masjid wasnt providing us a place to park our cars for Jummah. If you want a cleaner masjid then do your part in keeping it clean. WHich brings another important issue to mind.....masjid expenses and donations.

>>And this is not a feminist issue and Asra Nomani is not some raving psycho.<<

Unfortunetly this issue has been hijacked by femeNAZIs and their Muslim admirers. Nomani is first and foremost a liar, and thats not counting the nonsense regarding female imams and mixed congregations. Be careful who take your support from.

>>Grow up and learn to worship Islam not HIslam.<<

Clever attempt to play with words. Its about Islam, not Hislam or Herslam. If you want to discuss an issue learn to do without resorting to emotional handicaps and half truths.

Dr.DriveBy,
I did read it, infact I read a great deal of it before I bored and irritated at the infintile attacks BOTH of you where guilty of.
Secondly, no, of course this isn't the only issue at the masjids...that would be silly to say. But it is what the article was about. Yes safety is important, yes clean enviroments, good imams, educational programs...these are ALL important issues. But the article is not entitled : All Issues Regarding a Masjid...it was entitled: Woman Friendly Mosques...

And how trite to take the 'emotional handicap' route. Yes I am passionate about this, becouse of course it effects me! Would you call Dr. Martin Luther Kings personal stake in cival rights an 'emotional handicap?'

Now I will tell you that the masjid in my area seperates by a curtain which I am fine with. Both sides look equal, you can see and hear the imam fine...but I started in a masjid where woman prayed in the basement where there was mold and it was dusty. And going in the backdoor is also silly. Why don't men go in the back door? Men are no better then woman. Equal but different...back door is not equality.



And yes you did plenty of insulting...for instance:

*Learn to read jackball
*I think your inability to make your case is the source of your immature frustation.

Look I'm not saying I don't agree with your points, I'm saying that you (and OmarG) got all sidtracked and used this comment forum for personal attacks and bickering. Making all of us who read the article practially forget what it was about as we where scrolling through your arguments.

netiquette darling netiquette.

Dont' be so defensive really, you're very reactive. I am passionate about an issue but if someone in cyberspace disagrees then they disagree. When someone states their opinions as facts you cannot change their mind, so why bother and expend so much effort trying?

And I still like Ms. Nomani so hey, maybe I'm an evil femnazi or whatever it is...but I'll let you in on a secret...
The term Hislam is rampant with the females of the Muslim community. You would't belive all the things we actually talk about when you males arn't around to inturupt us by telling us we're getting too 'emotional'...as you yell at the car infront of you on the freeway for breaking...
Anyway, maybe this is all around you and your just not hearing it. Quiet down and learn to listen to the whispers.

>>And going in the backdoor is also silly. Why don't men go in the back door? Men are no better then woman. Equal but different...back door is not equality.<<

What difference does it make who goes through a front or back door ? Equating this with Jim Crow is a gross exagerration. It makes sense if men and woman pray separetly that they enter through separate entrances. Once again, if things arent clean in your section, raise the issue and do something about it. Its odd how some Muslims expect 5 star treatment in a masjid where their participation is sleeping through khutbas. I'm not saying you are doing this...but if you want to make your masjid a better and more accomodating place, either donate money, or if you dont have it volunteer in cleaning or any other task which saves the masjid resources for other areas of concern. And no, contrary to popular deception, Nomani is not fighting for womans rights. The woman is a sycophantic fraud.

>>I'm saying that you (and OmarG) got all sidtracked and used this comment forum for personal attacks<<

We did get side tracked because Colonol Sanders believes that vandalism, fire bombings and arson of masjids is a figment of my imagination. I find that both highly inconsistent and offensive, particularly coming from someone who claims to be interested in the affairs of the masjid. On top of that I asked him for the justification of female imams and mixed congregation, and the answer still has not been forthcoming. And no one can deny the sheer obsurdity of claiming that a tin pot dictator like Saddam was pointing "a gun" at the US to justify an illegal war. I'm supposed to take this guy seriously ?

>>The term Hislam is rampant with the females of the Muslim community. <<

I'm sure there are a lot of terms rampant in the community. But thats irrelevent, if these same people spent less time talking and more time doing something positive within an Islamic framework, they would see results. We're currently working on rebulding a mojave desert masjid which was destroyed in an arson attack, its not going to grab any media attention, but it'll serve the community, and thats good enough for me.

>>Dont' be so defensive really, you're very reactive.<<

I'm very blunt actually. I'm polite with those who are polite and vice versa.

If the back door dosn't make any difference then I suppose if we swiched and men started entering through there no complaints would be raised. I guess that's something I should bring up at a masjid...because really if it's not a big deal, like most men think, then men won't mind doing it themselves.

And I agree that the war was illegal and I agree that in most of your arguments you where correct, I'm not slamming you for that. What I am saying is that your arguments where distracting from the true nature of the topic.

And when I say that "This term is rampant in the community" what I'm trying to tell you is that a lot of woman feel this way. When a good number of people are feeling disinfranchised you can usually bet that they are being disinfranchised. Sure some of it I find trite and silly but a lot of it has sustinence and is really rather logical to complain about.

And I understand that woman should speak up in the masjid and demand better places to pray, but when you've been tought to be subservient your entire life to a male athority like an imam it's really quite hard for a lot of them to do.

What I'm saying is that you ought to listen very closley to what the woman in your masjid are saying. Don't put off their comments and 'too emotional' or 'too crazy'. Just listen and be objective. All we want is equal treatment, all we want is respect and validation...it's long overdue and Allah knows we've earned it.

>>If the back door dosn't make any difference then I suppose if we swiched and men started entering through there no complaints would be raised. I guess that's something I should bring up at a masjid...because really if it's not a big deal, like most men think, then men won't mind doing it themselves.<<

Let me ask you this then...what is the ratio of male to female masjid attendance ? I have yet to go to a masjid where more woman go than men.

>>but when you've been tought to be subservient your entire life to a male athority like an imam it's really quite hard for a lot of them to do.<<

I think you're confusing giving respect to elders with subservience. The Imam is not a boogey man to be afraid of. Speak up if you want your concerns heard.

Omarg,

>>>>I have already nullified your example
How?? Simply by saying that it is from early Islam and it is only one example?? You dismiss it on spurious grounds<<<<

Here it is again, try to *READ* this time:

ÏAll your example shows is the equivalent of being allowed the use of hammers and screwdrivers to construct a building. The tools used to achieve a goal are not being discussed. If you can snap out of your ranting, you would realize that it is the GOAL that we are discussing, i.e. women must serve on non-profits. We were NOT discussing HOW they were going to serve, but if they can or canÌt. The goal in your example was holy war, which is EXPLICIT in the Quran and Sunnah as a command. So where does the GOAL of Ïwomen must serve in non-profitÓ come from? Where does Quran or Sunnah mandate womenÌs service in non-profits? (still waiting for this answer)Ó

>>>> where did you learn that early Islam is not a basis for principles of Islamic life? And, in your estimation, what date is considered the cutoff? In case you forgot, you DID make this statement: "First of, your example is from the early days of Islam so it donÌt apply." Explain it or retract it!<<<
>>>> Ohhhh that's a big one! So now you're saying Allah and his messenger didn't get it right at the beginning?? The Meccan Surahs were revealed at this time, too, and many Hadith date from this period as well! Shall we throw it all away?! Truly bizzare! You *cannot* apply naasikh-mansuukh to everything you don't like! Truly, I've never heard a Muslim dismiss the Sirah of the early years like this before, truly an innovation from Shaytan<<<<

The explanation for those of us lacking the most basic knowledge. Here is what I said:

Ó First of, your example is from the early days of Islam so it donÌt apply. The reason it doesnÌt apply is because Islam was still being perfected for us. It is when the Prophet (SAAS) said that Ïtoday I have perfected your religion for youÓ that Islam became complete. If you were more knowledgeable about Islamic history, you would know that there were certain things that were allowed, but as Islam became developed, these things were abrogated. So, your methodology is incorrect, because ONE example from EARLY Islam cannot be used to create a ruling.Ó

[continued below]

Do you know what abrogate means? Abrogate = to formally revoke.

The problem with using ONLY ONE incident in the creation of a principle (in this case: ÎCulture can be adopted as a way of life, even when it supersedes IslamÌ) is that all other incidents are being ignored. One of the basic rules for establishing principles or conclusions is to look at ALL THE INCIDENTS AND AYATs that pertain to the topic at hand. If ONLY ONE incident is used (especially when there are MULTIPLE incidents that NEED to be reviewed) then your conclusion/principle will be wrong.

If you knew Islamic history, you would know that Islam was perfected for us step by step. The grossest outrage was addressed first, i.e. idolatry. If you will remember the very first step in becoming a Muslim is acknowledgement of God and His singularity, not the minute details involved in performing wudu or salat. It was the same way with the advent of Islam. The acknowledgement of God and His singularity was the PRIMARY message during early Islam. The other tenets followed as Islam continued to develop until the purdah of the prophet (SAAS). If you look at an incident, especially in early Islam, there is a chance it was abrogated. The reason for this is not because Ïthey didnÌt get it right the first timeÓ it is because God and His Prophet (SAAS) focused on those issues that HAD to be addressed AT THAT TIME. As I state earlier, Islam was only completed when the Prophet (SAAS) claimed that Ïit is now completeÓ. Islam, in its final form is whole system of interlocking components and a fluid way of life.

If you desire you can research the many examples of this, most notable and easily verifiable are: mutah and alcohol. Mutah was an acceptable form of marriage in early days of Islam but was later abrogated. Same thing with alcohol consumption, it was allowed during the early days but was abrogated.

Roomih, please stop. You've failed to make a case and now you're just reprinting earlier statements.

>>Same thing with alcohol consumption, it was allowed during the early days but was abrogated.

And preventing women from public roles was never among those things restricted, allowed or abrogated, so how does naasikh-mansuukh apply here?? Its clear you're defendinf your way of (mis)living, not at all on the topic at hand. Please respect readers like Samira who don't appreciate this. Write an article or something...

Assalam aleikum muslims, just to add my two cents, I don't want to get drawn in to this debate as I have my opinions and the only way they will be changed for me is if an authentic narration comes to me related thourgh the pious predecessors. With that being said, about women praying in the mosques. Ok, it is allowed and the men are not allowed to prevent the women frm going out to the mosques. With that being said I would love to add a couple observations into the mix. I regularly pray at a mosque a block from my house and it allows both men and women to pray, men on a lower level and women on a spacious balcony. The balcony is open with a glass waist high wall so the women can not only hear the imam, they can also hear him. Now, just this past weekend I went to pray dhuhr in the masjid on a friday afternoon. Alhamdulillah I was able to make it into the congregation. Problem is the muadhin made the adhan and the men proceeded to pray their sunnah salah and the women talked. Time came for the iqamah and the men lined up. The women talked. The imam said "ALLAHu akbar" to open the prayer and the men followed. The women talked. the imam recited surat ul fatiha silently as did the men. The women talked. The imam went into rukuh as did the men and still we heard the women talking. Yes the prayer had started and still the women were talking at full volume and this that and the other thing. It wasn't until the imam was in rukuh that women finally started to pray. I'm not saying that all the women were talking as I do do not look at the women in the mosque but there were many, many women who were talking as the prayer was taking place. When the prayer was done the men sat silently and made dhikr and prayed their sunnah salah. The first thing I heard from the women? Not silence because they were making dhikr or praying but a loud slam of the door as they left their balcony. Mere seconds later, these sisters were downstairs talking loudly, laughing and joking while the men were trying to concentrate on their remembrance of ALLAH. As a young single man(26) I can tell you it causes me no end to difficulty when women raise their beautiful voices when I am trying to remember ALLAH. Many of these "progressive" groups call for leaving islamic principles by the wayside and it just kills me as someone who chose Islam.

continued.. I found Islam after a long time searching trying all sorts of different religions finding none that gave me the peace I now have. To hear people who call themselves muslims trying to destroy Islam from within hurts me deeply. To see muslims rushing towards that which I fled breaks my heart. I can't tell you how tough it is to get respect from my own family when their muslism friends say "oh, you don't have to pray, you don't have to wear a beard, you don't have to such and such". The muslims ummah is in a state of ignorance and desire worship. Don't believe me? Go to almost any mosque, which by the way are usually empty unless there is some dinner or "eloquent speaker' giving a talk, and ask the muslims if interest charging mortgages are ok or dating is halal. These things break my heart, muslims who believe that western "equality" is the way to go, imitating the non muslims in all aspects will give us success. The second you suggest that ALLAH will help us when we return to HIS deen the way HE revealed it, you are labelled a "wahabbi' or extremist. So, I must say I am not in anyway against women praying in the mosques, in matter of fact I am all for it, praying in a mosque is something I would deny no muslim. I rail against ignorant cultural customs as much as any of these progressives but I don't seek to replace them with western culture, I want to replace it with pure Islam. And no, I would never resort to bombing innocents to acheive these aims, such things are tools of the ignorants. The problem is I see, is people, especially the women(and I mean this with no malice whatsoever) turning our place of prostration into a place of yelling, gossip and swearing. May ALLAH guide us and protect us from our own vain selfish desires. amin. Assalam aleikum wa rahmatullah

>>I think you're confusing giving respect to elders with subservience. The Imam is not a boogey man to be afraid of. Speak up if you want your concerns heard.

I am not confusing respect for elders with subservience. When you are a Muslim woman you are taught, more often then not, to never question men. The man is the head of the household, the men have power in the masjid, the men have power politically...power=man. When a woman does something powerfull in Islam by many she get's called 'western' or a 'feminazi'.
When Muslim woman scaled Mt. Everest people where busy wondering if they where 'decent' enough and 'covered enough skin'. That's asinine.
And I know you wern't brought up that way and I know it's probably hard for you to relate to living the life of a Muslim woman, but please understand that it's not that we're scared of the imam, we're not. We just think they'll oftentimes regard our complaints as trite or silly or emotional, even if they are logical. We worry about these things because they have happened to us over and over again.
Again, I have no problem with seperate prayer areas, as long as they are equally as nice. And I understand more men then woman attend masjid, but maybe if we felt more welcome there (nice prayer areas, able to walk in any door, classes for us) you'd find more woman really do want to go. And as far as the door thing goes, it's like saying "you are second class, you are not even good enough to walk in the front door with me, I don't think you deserve that privillage" and it's rude. You can say it's not like that but understand that there is no reality, only perception and if we're perceiving somethign as such, then there are rightfull reasons and those should be addressed.
And I'm sorry Revertbrother about you expierence with woman in a mosque. Maybe you can find a better one in your area...but please don't judge us all by the actions of a few. I think you'd find many woman want to be pious in their salat, but just don't find a decent place to go.

Well well, what do we have here?....
I go on vacation and when I get back, I come here expecting something that I can sink my teeth into÷÷÷and all I get is Ïplease stop÷write an article or something÷.Ó????!!!!
ThatÌs it? Is that all you can do omrg?

Your lack of logic/rationale/evidence/coherence is obviously indicative of your limited (ha!) intellect÷..
Why donÌt you grow a brain or something.