On the face of it, the recent brochure (.pdf) about women's rights in the mosque has caused much excitement, particularly among those who have been pushing for years for increased equity in mosque operations and facilities. The call for women to be in the main prayer hall along with men, backed by major Muslim organizations, seems to be a difficult pill for many conservative mosques to swallow. However, a closer read of the document shows that there is a great deal of wiggle room that allows male-run mosques to obey the letter of the law without ceding much control or significantly improving the situation of women in North American mosques today.

Women's speech at the mosque?

The document addresses the near-total absence of women's voices in the mosque by calling for the inviting of women scholars to hold seminars, which on the face of it seems to be a good thing. But the intention of this document becomes clearer with the subsequent call for women to "introduce speakers, offer opening and closing dua or prayer during educational programs, moderate panels, and direct question and answer sessions" - in short, do everything but address the combined body of the mosque in an authoritative manner. But what about the call for women scholars to hold seminars in the mosque? Seminars, by definition, are optional affairs that are attended only by those who wish to participate. In a more conservative mosque, this means that women scholars will come and give a seminar to the women of the mosque - hardly a dramatic change from the situation today. And in a collective, "non-seminar" setting, the best that Muslim women can hope for is to introduce the main (male) speaker.

Appointed or elected?

A Response To Comments On The "Women-Friendly Mosques" Brochure - I very much appreciate your positive responses to the mosque access brochure, and for highlighting its positive potential to play a transformative role, insha Allah. Also, I am grateful for your support on this issue of women's inclusion. Below is some additional background information about brochure that I think important for you to know. (Read more...)

A discussion of mosque governance that does not use the word "elect" and "women" in the same sentence cannot be taken seriously. Sure, the document calls for women to be "represented on governing boards" with "at least two seats... designated to be held for women." But which women? Is it for people to be elected fairly by the mosque population, even if it makes the men of the Board uncomfortable? Or - as this document suggests - it is for the men to appoint those women who agree with their style of leadership and will preserve the status quo? The situation at conservative mosques suggests that this is the path that will be taken, absolving the board of any accusation of bias because they are following the letter of the "women-friendly mosques" declaration. Where does this leave women? Free to use "suggestion boxes" and "bulletin boards" to appeal to the mosque leadership, with no guarantee of change.

Separate and unequal?

The issue of women's space in the mosque is probably the most sensitive point for pro-women activists, and has most visibly illustrated the problem of gender inequity. This document, while allowing for women to co-exist in the main hall with men, leaves many unanswered questions. Can women enter through the main entrance? It appears not, as the document calls for a safe (presumably separate, not necessarily equal) entrance exclusively for women. It allows for women to be in the same musalla as men, yet says nothing about barriers that can be erected between the genders. Of course, conservative mosques will erect a floor-to-wall barrier within the main room, and declare with great satisfaction that they have complied with the "women-friendly mosques" document, when in fact they have created yet another separate space, only this one isn't in the basement anymore.

This document is worded in such a careful way as to allow current ultraconservative mosques to operate as-is, with only minor changes. Unless our institutions are willing to come clean, with clear, unambigious language that leaves no room for opponents of change to wiggle free, documents such as this will only serve to clear the conscience of those troubled by accusations of inequity, without changing anything on the ground.

Roomih, you missed the part where I said that *his* way of being Muslim cannot be a basis... with his way being dismissive of the needs of other Muslims (namely, women) and making attacks against people's backgrounds and personal situations as a poor way to argue against a competing viewpoint. Its nice to see dude has a cheerleader sitting on the sidelines. So, instead of criticizing, do tell us how women would fit into your ideal community, since some people here seem to take such offense at the pamphlet's recommendations. Be constructive, for once, and go beyond tearing down other people's initiatives.

>>with his way being dismissive of the needs of other Muslims (namely, women) and making attacks against people's backgrounds and personal situations as a poor way to argue against a competing viewpoint.<<

I'm dismissive of claims made by people on the periphery of the community. Doubts are raised when these same people go on FOX news and lie through their teeth about their community. Speaking of dismissive, how can any serious Muslim dismiss attacks on masjids like you have? Muslim woman do not need sycophants who base their views through dead beat marxist paradigms. Whatever problems we all face, we will get through them without the regressive reactionaries on the left.
I have raised concern about your words and actions as an occupation-supporting member of the US army in Iraq. Its fair game to remind folks here, that you have supported some of the worst atrocities in Iraq on MWU. I'm supposed to believe that you're sincere in your efforts for Muslim womans rights, while you reject security concerns for the entire community, all this while cheerleading a most illegal and criminal war ? I'm not buying it.

>>Its nice to see dude has a cheerleader sitting on the sidelines.<<

It must be annoying not having the oppositions comments deleted like on mwu.

>>do tell us how women would fit into your ideal community<<

Muslim woman can and do speak for themselves. They dont need you, and the goofballs at mwu with their publicity stunts to do it for them.

>>Be constructive, for once, and go beyond tearing down other people's initiatives.<<

Great idea, trouble is you are mistaken. I'm not tearing down any iniatives, just questioning some portions of it, in light of other concerns, thats all. This isnt the army where you can dismiss other peoples concerns. Doesnt work that way in the real world.

Everything has its place OmarG. The issue (of women's rights in mosques) has its place in the grand scheme of things; it does not, however, eclipse ALL other issues that afflict the local mosques. Why does everybody act as if this issue will decide if we burn in hell or float in heaven?

I have said it before, and let me say it again: There is NO crisis taking place as it relates to women's rights. What is a crisis is the erosion of what it means to be a "Muslim", especially for those of us living in the United States.

If you can read, and I am sure you can, go back and read DrDriveByÌs first few posts about American politics for the control of Islam.
It has nothing to do with Ïmale insecurityÓ Óconspiracy theoriesÓ or Ïconservative imaginationÓ, it has to do with facing reality and making choices.

Not to Ïtear down other peopleÌs initiativesÓ, but letÌs see some credentials.
Qualifications of the feminists notwithstanding, I donÌt see ANY of these people as role models or leaders (and its not because IÌm not looking). These people lack credibility, knowledge, education, and aadaab. In fact, some of these ÎreformersÌ may not fall in Islam, given their views and beliefs. So I ask you OmarG, why is it that we have *less than ideal* people claiming leadership? What has happened to all the other millions of women that want to pray in mosques? Are they somehow incapacitated? Why wonÌt ONE decent Muslim woman come forward and proclaim this as an issue? Maybe, because it is not an issue.

These people are not looking for guidance, not faith, not piety, not tolerance, not the ability to pray, none of these things, b/c if we *really* want these things, we can achieve them already.

So I ask you, what do you think these "sisters of Islam" are trying to achieve?

hint: P_w_r

Now we're having a constructive discussion. First off, DrDriveBy is assuming I am somehow representing MWU "against" him or something; I am not. I am me, myself and I who is questioning his conspiracy theory-like rhetoric. I'm not even a leftist and I personally despise marxism. I am a Marine, but I have no idea how my job impacts on a discussion about women in our communities.

Then, Roomih, I am not clearly seeing how following the pamphlet's recommendations leads to American control of Islam, or for that matter control of Islam by any state. I have seen in all except one of the masjeds I've been a part of, a glaring and crippling lack of female participation. Its not Islamic per se, but to me its got more to do with the place of women in immigrant cultures (though certainly not all immigrants agree with this default second-class status).

>>These people are not looking for guidance, not faith, not piety, not tolerance, not the ability to pray, none of these things, b/c if we *really* want these things, we can achieve them already.

Yes, but a livable community is not only based on these things. These people have to interact during meals, conduct business with each other, run non-profit organizations. Women are not given a role in many masjeds beyond sitting in the back, or even worse, in a whole other room with no choice and no representation on the masjed's administration. Yet, women *are* provenly productive directors of Muslim-owned businesses and non-profits and media. Why are they treated so second class in only the masjeds? This is not a marxist viewpoint; it is the viewpoint of a husband whose seen his wife excluded because "women can't be on the board". I can no longer sit by and see my female relatives treated poorly when I know they are quite capable of contributing significantly to the quality of the mosque experience, yet are exluded, even with hijab, from any official capacity. Why? Why should I settle for that?

You have missed the first part of my post and DrDriveByÌs point, namely that this issue does not warrant the attention it is getting. The attention is purely political/capitalistic in nature and does not seek to implement any lasting and actual reform. So stop with the ÏI can no longer sit by÷Ó nonsense. And yes, it is nonsense. Let me say it again: It is not a crisis, it is an issue highlighted by people who do not have the qualifications of being a leader, and have agendas other than actual reform.

Secondly, all the ÏwhysÓ that you ask have already been answered. All that is required is a little research and education on your part. The role of women and why they can/canÌt Ïhold official capacityÓ has been defined for quite some time now (almost 15 centuries).
I will grant you that there are some Muslims that belong to a culture where women are considered Ïsecond-classÓ; but how does the non-conformance of these people implicate Islam and its teachings?

Thirdly you are wrong when you assert that we need more than Ïguidance, faith, tolerance, piety, ability to prayÓ to create a sustainable Islamic society. Any goal other than those listed above are not goals, but are ulterior motives. Why does a woman NEED (note I say need vs want) to Ïconduct businessÓ Ïinteract during mealsÓ Ïrun non-profit organizationsÓ. Where is this mandate coming from? It is a self-created mandate that has no basis in Islam and its teachings. Islam mandates certain things for women, nowhere is there Ïrun a non-profit organizationÓ.

Fourthly, your personal desires to ÏsettleÓ for something or not is not an issue that requires attention. As a Muslim you should subjugate your personal desires to follow the commands of God. Coming from the military you should be able to relate to this concept. Again, there is no issue b/c we have specific guidelines that we must follow, whether you like those guidelines or not, is immaterial.

Let me also ask you, to clarify priorities:
A woman who is a single mother, should she devote her time to raising her father-less child or should she run for a local masjidÌs board or directors?

>>First off, DrDriveBy is assuming I am somehow representing MWU "against" him or something; I am not. I am me, myself and I who is questioning his conspiracy theory-like rhetoric.<<

You are regurjitating mwu propaganda hence its not a stretch to associate you with them, especially since you are an avid poster there. Its not a conspiracy theory that these lefties who dont even attend the masjid have all of a sudden become very concerned with perceived gender issues. You wont see them talking about issues of health care, poverty , education and emplyment because they affect Muslim men AND woman. You wont see them on FOX if that were the case. Interesting that these people who want a separation of masjid and state have no qualms about injecting their own version of red tape there when they establish can control.

>>I'm not even a leftist and I personally despise marxism.<<

Strange bedfellows indeed.

>>I am a Marine, but I have no idea how my job impacts on a discussion about women in our communities.<<

Well considering your "job" is fighting an illegal war....I know some people in the army who detest whats going on, you however are an ardent supporter of the war on Iraq, and I have a hard time buying the notion that you care about the Muslim community in the US while killing members of that same community in Iraq, 100000 and counting.

>>A woman who is a single mother, should she devote her time to raising her father-less child or should she run for a local masjidÌs board or directors?<<

The problem isnt that Nomani is a single mother, its that she is a fraud. She has lied about her background, insists that since her daddy contributed financially to the Morgantown masjid she has a special right to hold a position there (patriarchy anybody). She also is ignorant on Islam and pulls publicity stunts to promote herself. A typical "house negro" in Malcolm X's words.

Salaams,

>>Why does a woman NEED (note I say need vs want) to Ïconduct businessÓ Ïinteract during mealsÓ Ïrun non-profit organizationsÓ.

Because she is HUMAN like any male. I'm genuinly surprised by your outlook on women. I disagree with you on this. Perhaps such a view can hold water in the MidEast, but it cannot in the West. We are part of a society that does not restrict women from contributing to society by doing more than being barefoot and pregnant (yes, I'm part and parcel of my country and not an outsider! Muslims are here to stay!) Now, I'd fully expect someone to raise the issue that Western society also encourages promiscuity, yet it is irrelevant since most of the active sisters I know are hijabis, very professional and leave me with little reservation that they are the best PERSON for the job. As a father, I can help raise my children just as well as my wife and still hold down a full time job (boy, isn't it though!) and earn college degrees. Maybe not every man wants to help out at home, but the Prophet (S) sure did! I would also further say that I would be shy to abuse the Quran and Sunnah by using it to reinforce MidEastern cultures of oppression; truly strange...

>>Because she is HUMAN like any male.<<

The humanity of woman is not the issue of contention here.

>>I would also further say that I would be shy to abuse the Quran and Sunnah by using it to reinforce MidEastern cultures of oppression<<

Ah yes, the typical "Middle Eastern culture is oppressive," line. This may be the result of the fact that Bernard Lewis's polemical "What went wrong ?" is mandatory reading in the army. Nothing like a little racist indoctrination for the storm troopers.
Since Middle Eastern culture is "oppressive," its creates a ruthless justification in the minds of those who have bombed mosques, shot worshippers as they knelt in prayer and killed over 100000 innocent cilvilians, sadistic torture and rape notwithstanding.
"Oppresvie cultures," indeed. Look whos talking.
And speaking of Quran and Sunnah, oh never mind, you know what I'm going to ask you.

OmarG,

>>>Because she is HUMAN like any male<<<

I have already explained to you that your personal viewpoints, such as those on what women can/canÌt do are totally IMMATERIAL (Immaterial = worthless). It does not matter what you personally believe. Islam does not recognize our personal sense of balance. Rather, if you are a Muslim, you would seek to impose what GOD tells us will create balance.

>>>We are part of a society that does not restrict women from contributing to society<<<
God has already told us what men and women can and canÌt do. So where is there room for us to go back and start revising GodÌs commands? Either you follow Islam, or you donÌt. Either you put GodÌs commands first or you donÌt. It doesnÌt matter if we ÏthinkÓ we can do better. God has prohibited certain things, and allowed certain things, and has given us CLEAR and COMPREHENSIVE guidelines for a sustainable, equitable society. So what makes you so special that you can do a better job than God?

>>>I would be shy to abuse the Quran and Sunnah by using it to reinforce MidEastern cultures of oppression<<<

Where do you get off equating culture with religion? I can name a lot worse cultures than the Arab culture. All cultures, by definition are inherently flawed, because they are created by mankind. You have already mentioned one of the innumerable evils of western society: promiscuity. So how can you use ÏWestern cultureÓ as a role mode? That is one of the reasons why Islam transcends culture and mandates certain guidelines for our life.

Your writing reveals some deep-seated indoctrination. You seem to be product of the Ïnew-age-IslamÓ that Bush, Inc. is so busy trying to develop.

I am compelled to ask: are you a Muslim? If so, what Islamic doctrines do you acknowledge? What fiqh, if any do you follow? Do you have a sheykh? If so, can he trace his ijazah (permission) back to The Prophet (SAAS)?

Please answer the questions I have asked in my previous and above posts (15 thus far).

It seems that the Arizona Supreme court has now deemed it a protection of the first amendment to call for the murder of Muslims Americans in retaliation for the deaths of US soldiers in Iraq.

http://islamonline.com/cgi-bin/news_service/world_full_story.asp?service_id=1629

I'd love to hear GI Joe claim that I cooked this one up.

Oh Roomih, I'm not a traditionalist. It seems you are and that's fine if it works for you, but you'll never get me to buy into the same way of being Muslim that's caked with centuries of add-ons that are called "Islamic". Gos has prohibited certain things. Indeed and they listed in the Quran, so tell me where the Quran says women can't run non-profits? Are you unaware of the stories of the many Sahabi women who were public figures, even warriors? Surely, Allah would have sent down Wahy against them... if they were wrong. They were not, simply it was not a big thing in Arab culture for women to lead, but was never prohibited through Wahy.

>>are you a Muslim?

The fact you had to ask is sick. Are you a fascist? If it were any of your business, I am a Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society and a Modernist in government. I acknowledge the doctrine of the Quran and Sunnah, not that of any person. I use Westerm culture because it is the one I live in and was born into. I like it; it suits me fine and fills in the blanks where the Quran and Sunnah are silent, silence I can only beleive is intentional since Allah does not forget. Its the same way that someone born in Japan finds Japanese culture just fine. Your Sheikhs had to contruct a whole edifice based on thier own cultures because Islam is silent about many things. Would you go to your Sheikh to determine if you should import Toyotas, as is my favorite example?

>> I am a Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society and a Modernist in government<<

A true pro-regressive.

>>Your Sheikhs had to contruct a whole edifice based on thier own cultures because Islam is silent about many things.<<

Once again its common sense to ask those who have more knowledge, I wonder why you guys are so scared of Sheikhs ? The practice of Islam is under developed in the west it seems. But tell me this, Islam is clear on whether a Muslim can serve in a non-Muslim army...so how do you explain this in light of your current job status.

>>slam is clear on whether a Muslim can serve in a non-Muslim army...so how do you explain this in light of your current job status.

Is it? You shouldn't mistake fighting against oppressive and corrupt Muslims as being the same thing as fighting the light of Islam. Do you want to make Muslims just another ethnicity? Nope, if someone is a corrupt bonehead with a gun, should I let him go just because he is a Muslim by name for all I know?? Your attitude aids and abets the strangling corruption, both religious and economic. Thanks a million for being just another tribalist.

>>You shouldn't mistake fighting against oppressive and corrupt Muslims as being the same thing as fighting the light of Islam.<<

So why arent you fighting Uzbekistan's Islam Karimov or a host of other dictators in the Islamic world ? Why Saddam all of a sudden ? Dont delude yourself, you arent fighting against oppression or corruption, but FOR it. Tell me again about WMDs 911 and the whole horse manure of LIES used to justify this criminal invasion.

>>Nope, if someone is a corrupt bonehead with a gun, should I let him go just because he is a Muslim by name for all I know??<<

Rubbish, stop playing cowboy for a second and use your head. Saddam wasnt pointing a gun at the US and you know it. If you believe that he had the ability to launch his mythical arsenal at you, then man you are smoking some serious crack.

>> Your attitude aids and abets the strangling corruption, both religious and economic.<<

Wrong as usual. I'm not a lying war criminal who justifies invasion, wars of conquest and torture on a fake premise. Go use that lame excuse on the families of the 100000 Iraqis who are dead thanks to your criminal invasion. Talking about the pot calling the kettle black.

>>Thanks a million for being just another tribalist.<<

If I was one, I'd be fighting ay-rabs besides you GI joe. Bottom line Gomer, your case is built on a miasma of fraud, deciet and murder. I can see clearly why Smirk is trying to exempt you guys from the International Criminal Court, and with good reason. As I recall the "I'm doing my job" defence didnt go over too well at the Nuremberg war crimes tribunal.

Yeaaah, baby! You got a real hard on for me, don't ya? Well geuss what, you didn't stop me before and you won't stop me now... all you can do in your impotence is to spew forth about who I am rather than the fact that Muslim women are increasingly taking back thier rights, something they can do in the West. So, sit back, stew in your juices and debate issues far above your head all you want, cause this is the tip of the iceberg. Change is coming and it pisses you off. Good.

>>>you'll never get me to buy into the same way of being Muslim that's caked with centuries of add-ons that are called "Islamic<<<

IÌm not trying to get you to do anything. You are supposed to Muslim, by choice. Did somebody force you to proclaim shahada? All I am trying to do is show you that your ideology and methodology are false and that you have been misguided.

>>>Gos has prohibited certain things. Indeed and they listed in the Quran, so tell me where the Quran says women can't run non-profits?<<<

Likewise, where does God allow women to serve in non-profits? Where do we see an example of power grabbing females in the ProphetÌs (SAAS) time?

>>>The fact you had to ask is sick. Are you a fascist? If it were any of your business, I am a Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society and a Modernist in government<<<

Bush, Inc would be so proud. ThatÌs right, religion should be limited for your house or place of worship. WhatÌs with all this nonsense about a religion being a Ïway of lifeÓ÷barbaric stuff÷

>>>I acknowledge the doctrine of the Quran and Sunnah, not that of any person<<

By Quran and Sunnah, I hope you mean the doctrines of our Prophet (SAAS)?

>>>I use Westerm culture because it is the one I live in and was born into. I like it; it suits me fine and fills in the blanks where the Quran and Sunnah are silent, silence I can only beleive is intentional since Allah does not forget. Its the same way that someone born in Japan finds Japanese culture just fine<<<

Your writing clearly shows that you have "issues" with the "quality" of guidance God has provided. You sound like Iconoclast, a nutjob on this site earlier this year.

Regardless, what "gaps" or "silence" are you talking about? Have you even read the Quran in its entirety? what about the Hadith volumes? Which ones? Are you proficient in classical Arabic?

Why dont you go and seek knowledge from somebody who actually has knowledge, instead of proclaiming that the Quran & Sunnah have gaps, albeit intentional. (No doubt you will fill the gaps for us)

Why does your culture matter? It doesnÌt, unless you start superceding the religion with culture. Why would you adopt a culture that has inherent flaws? You mentioned you had kids÷are you going to tell them that Ïit is ok to sex when you are in loveÓ (the western approach to sex), vs. to: sex outside of marriage is punishable by death by stoning (the Islamic approach to sex)?

>>Sheikhs had to contruct a whole edifice based on thier own cultures because Islam is silent about many things<<

Yawn÷.more Bush, Inc. indoctrination, let me also guess, it was the MUSLIMS that painted themselves with blue tattoos and ran around half naked until the EUROPEANS came along and gave us knowledge and changed our barbaric ways÷come to think of it, we are still pretty darn barbaric÷

>>>Would you go to your Sheikh to determine if you should import Toyotas, as is my favorite example?<<<

You favorite example only shows your lack of knowledge, a.k.a. stupidity. If you will recall, we have a Prophet (SAAS). He was a trader by profession. He used to take goods from one place and sell them in another place. Those of us with some intelligence can see that importing Toyotas is allowed in the Sunnah. Those of us that are less than intelligent can go ask a sheikh and he will provide the same answer as above. Those of us that are misguided, and harbor reservations in our hearts from completely following ALLAH (SWT) will use any stupid question that pops into our mind to proclaim their rejection of true Islam.

>>So, sit back, stew in your juices and debate issues far above your head all you want, cause this is the tip of the iceberg. Change is coming and it pisses you off.<<

Keep dreaming. The fact of the matter is you havent been able to bring forth a single valid point in your justification of your position. Hiding like a coward behind a uniform and computer screen. Since when did war criminals develop an interest in civil rights ?

Roomih, I think you've made some excellent points. Dont you find GI Joe's attitude a bit cavalier though ?