It appears that two Iranian women have become the first Muslim women to scale Mount Everest. This impressive feat will no doubt be heralded around the Muslim world, and for good reason. But do many of us really have the right to be proud of them?

Everyone will applaud and take great pride in their accomplishment. And we'll all cite this as an example of how liberated Muslim women are, contrary to all the slanders against Islam that one hears today.

But how many of us will take notice of the fundamental contradiction between those sentiments and the continuing efforts to defend Islamo-Victorian attitudes which delegitimize any such enterprise on the part of women? How many of us will admit to ourselves that we wouldn't have supported them in their quest because of all our hang-ups?

The list of "traditional" taboos which these bold and strong women broke is long. It includes many problematic assumptions about women's roles in society that many in the Muslim community still defend tooth and nail, and in spite of increasing evidence to the contrary. Now, I don't know how they dressed or what the other details of this ascent were, nor do I want to speculate about them personally, but it's appropriate to ask some general questions.

If hijab is the most important aspect to a woman's public presence (and that is preciously the implication of much so-called Islamic thinking today), how can she be climbing a mountain?!? Shouldn't we be condemning her?

Think about it. Can a woman safely scale Everest while fretting about whether any of her hair is visible? Can she do so while obsessing about her legs or arms showing (both of which remain taboo in the Muslim community, regardless of the weather or circumstances)? Think somebody can climb a mountain wearing a shalwar khameez, much less a jilbab?

Wait, it gets worse. What if there is a man beneath her on the trail? Is she not dishonored by this compromising position? And won't that sight risk causing fitnah and fatality on the mountainside? (I'm reminded of the fretting of late about the dire consequences of female imams bending over in front of men.)

And then there's the question of whether a "respectable" Muslim woman would wander around remote mountains with sherpas and assorted rich, mostly non-Muslim men from the four corners of the globe (i.e., other climbers)? Also, is it legitimate for a Muslim woman to leave her family behind not only to go on a long excursion into the wilderness, but to risk life & limb for the sake of a thrill? (These questions are never asked of men, of course, but that's another discussion.)

[Note: My beef here is not with hijab. Or modesty. Or family values. Quite the contrary. The problem is not those traditional values or Muslims' respect for them, but rather the selective and sometimes neurotic application of these values in the case of women, to the point where a woman becomes defined by her clothing rather than her actions and beliefs.]

I ask this question not to be snarky, but to highlight how our priorities are often out of whack. Which is more important in this situation, a woman mountain climber's safety or remaining completely "modest" (i.e., covered to the maximum extent possible)? If we say the former, then we need to admit that these norms about women's dress which we cling to obsessively and which we treat as universal are, in fact, not universal. We'll have to admit that the requirements of modesty depend on context, and that there is more to a woman's soul than her hijab.

Or we could just be consistent and say those women should've just stayed home and let the men do the mountain climbing.

Many of us won't see the contradiction and will keep these conflicting ideas in hermetically sealed compartments of our minds, but perhaps this is how reform really happens. The real world sometimes develops quite independently of people's theories about "tradition" and has a tendency to confound scholar's neat categories. One day, people who've long advocated purdah in various forms wake up and realize that Muslim women are scaling mountains, hijab-less, perhaps in shorts at times, and in the sight of men, and that human civilization hasn't come to an end. Then they're forced to reevaluate all their black & white assumptions about gender.

Maybe then they'll stop treating women like clothing racks.

The only people who treat women like clothing racks are the "uneducated masses", and yes some of them are Muslim. Islam, however, does not have contradictions or conflicting ideas. The fog in your mind is a creation of your desire and nafs.
There are *simple* and *clear* rules for hijab and covering the body. Any sensible *Muslim* woman will realize that removing the scarf in exchange for a *personally* satisfying, physical challenge (such as scaling a mountain) is a BAD trade off. Doing an act just to get a name in some record, and have the *personal* satisfaction of "having done it" is not a very noble goal. What benefit is there in scaling a mountain, especially when you factor in the spiritual cost of becoming indecent in front of men? Is this the ONLY way to achieve this benefit? Can this benefit not be achieved in another manner? Must it be achieved while wearing shorts and/or other revealing attire in front of men?
If you continue answering these questions, you will realize that we do NOT have to forsake our lives to follow Islam, rather we must live within the framework of Islam.
The 'fitnah and fatality' concern that you so casually dismiss, may or may not be a concern, depending on where in the world you are, and in what state of undress. It is a real issue to take into consideration. A good eye-opener for you would be to read "Blasphemy" by Tehmina Durrani.

>>>I ask this question not to be snarky, but to highlight how our priorities are often out of whack. Which is more important in this situation, a woman mountain climber's safety or remaining completely "modest?<<<
Well, let me ask you:
What is MORE important: Following GodĚs command to be decent or Satisfying a personal desire (at the cost of that command)?
Answering that question will clarify your priorities.
Islam, first and foremost, is submission to God, and GodĚs will, in direct conflict with oneĚs personal desires.
If you *really* want reform, and *real* reform, then you should focus on educating the masses of what Islam *really* is, and that includes Muslims; instead of asking asinine questions and highlighting events as divisive issues.
But I doubt you have sincere intentions.

What is the point in climbing a mountain? Only the ego finds satisfaction in such small acts.,,,What? you have conquered creation? No no No, how stupid can one be....might I suggest that once reaching the pinnacle that you jump. Now theres a story!!!!! Who cares about mountain climbers, the world would be better place with less of them; both men and women.

basit is right. Everything we do must serve some exact purpose. We eat, sleep, drink to live. We go to work to make money. We pray, fast etc for God's pleasure. Recreation and human achievement are complete farses. Who cares about people climbing Mt. Everest? Who cares about man reaching the moon? The hijab compels us to leave these frivolous activites.

I have a question for basit... if you want to get rid of mountain climbing, what activities do you want to keep? any others to get rid of too?

"what activities do you want to keep?"

Anything promoting the remembrance of God

"any others to get rid of too?"

Anything that leads to the forgetfullness of God

To be honest these are not such easy questions to answer. For all I know these Iranian ladies climbing the mountain has lead to the remembrance of Allah. We are talking about God, aren't we?

What I was trying to express was that there are more productive activities to do than climbing mountains. Remember we all have a finite amount of time in this world. Time is better spent understanding the meaning and objective of life and it is not meant to sow the seeds of love of the world. What is the point, our life here is not forever.

Anyways....I'm not to great with words, so I will stop now. However I will leave with Allahs Words:

007.051
"Such as took their religion to be mere amusement and play, and were deceived by the life of the world." That day shall We forget them as they forgot the meeting of this day of theirs, and as they were wont to reject Our signs.

Salaams,

Number 1: Who would scale Everest in shorts? Mr. and Ms. Frostbite, that's who. I'm sure the women were covered from head to toe in clothing - if not for Islamic "modesty," then most certainly for the fact that it's well beyond freezing at the top of the mountain!

Number 2: How could a hijab prevent you from climbing? Does hijab make your arms and legs work less efficiently? There is no problem with the women fulfilling modesty requirements with a headscarf - or beenie even - and climbing the mountain.

They would not need to stop to wonder if a hair is showing through the hijab anymore than another climber would stop to see if their underwear were showing through their pants. If you know how to put your clothes on, and you do it right the first time - which most people do - that should not be an issue.

But nonetheless, whether they were "properly" covered or not, is NOT the point.

Muslim or not, woman or not, with all the things there are to do in the world, why would climbing to the top of a freezing mountain be considered among the "greatest achievements"? How about curing world hunger, or AIDS, or cancer, or how about raising a family, or - get this one: achieving Heaven!?

Which headline would you prefer:
a.) "Muslim Woman Cures Cancer"
b.) "Muslim Woman Climbs Mountain"

On the Day of Judgement, which deed do you think will be more beneficial?

Wow, so Muslim women climbed Everest. Congratulations to them. But so what? Is that the true measure of a liberated woman? I want nothing more than to see Muslim women in the headlines - at the forefront of the greatest advancements and achievements, but I don't consider climbing a mountain as one of them.

It seems that priorities here are WAY out of line. Leave death-defying, useless "accomplishments" for those without guidance.

As for the Muslims - the women and the men - let them achieve the best "accomplishments": success in this world and the next by doing that which is commanded by God, and not by their whim or ambition.

Salaams, Chico et al.

Thanks for your feedback.

I don't have the time or energy to address all these points now, but I'll just note that

1) How these specific women dressed in this specific case isn't really the point. The point is that the sartorial norms which are rammed down Muslim women's throats--and which are treated as universal and sacred--by many in the community are utterly unsuited to many activities that most of us intuitively understand to be legitimate for women (e.g., riding, hiking). Men are allowed to vary their wardrobe (and amount of modesty) depending on circumstances and needs, but women are expected to always be dressed like they're on their way to the nunnery.

2) I'm not sure that the attitudes which stand in the way of women mountain climbing are much more supportive of women curing cancer. Attitudes that delegitimize women's free participation in the public sphere and which make women's dress the root of all evil (as opposed to blaming men for giving in to temptation--it's supposed to take two to tango) are ultimately just as inimical to academic and professional achievement. It's a neo-Victorian (and extremely classist) vision of society that has little basis in Quran or Sunnah.

3. Finally, I don't see a conflict between remembering Allah and doing these things (assuming that one does them in a halal--read: decent, ethical--manner). Islam doesn't require us to live like robots or monks, however much some us seem to think so.

Zikr takes many forms.

Wasalaam.

Oops, I meant to write "(e.g., bike riding, hiking)".

Salaams,

Svend has a point. I don't think he is arguing about what the limits are of halal and haram. The point is, in practice, some Muslim individuals or communities apply those rules inconsistently. In the case of certain actions we "throw the book" at the people involved. But in the case of others, we look the other way.

>>>Men are allowed to vary their wardrobe (and amount of modest)<<<

says who?

There is a mimimum dress code for men ( i.e. navel to knee). The dress code for men is different from that of women, just like men and women are inherently different. The difference comes not from some cultural power struggle, but rather from the divine.
I agree that there is no conflict between practising Islam and living life, as long as we learn to embrace the limitations that God has set for us. Men are different from women, b/c that is the way God wants it.

Salaams, Roomih

Let me know men start gettting harassed at juma' for tight jeans or muscle shirts (to say nothing of the many cases of "plumber butt" one sees in ruku) and then I'll agree with you.

I'm not saying that men and women and women should dress identically, but rather that unrealistic and unfair expectations are often applied to women.

People would never dream of policing men's dress the way it does women. How many of us would dare to walk up to a complete stranger and tell him that too much of his bicep was showing, or that his jeans are immodest? Would we think it's halal to ignore the principles of adab and humiliate a man by publicly berating him for his imperfectly modest outfit? Would we feel entitled to backbite such a man and question his iman?

Well, this and more happens all the time to women. In fact, it's so common that we don't even notice it. That's what I'm talking about.

In agreement with Chico-
Have you ever seen someone who is climbing Mt. Everest. I promise they are wearing more clothes then the most pious woman in Mekkah. Their heads are covered, gloves are on, face is usually covered, goggles, sometimes breathing apparatus, large coats, pants in layers, boots socks....what exactly is imodest about that.
A woman climbing a mountain wouldn't even have to wear a hijab. Her head cap, coat and facial covers would leave her more modest then anyplace in Iran.

And furthermore since when are Muslims not allowed to exersize in beautiful scenery? Should keeping fit be limited to the constraints of one's garden? Certainly not! And so what if they arn't curing cancer, are you? I doubt it. Instead of going to work every day and living a dull life, or raising children and dealing with irritations all the time they choose to do somethign exiting and challenging. How in any way shape or form does this make them bad Muslims?

Sure I'd like to see Muslim woman cures cancer. But then again I'd like cancer cured no matter who did it, Muslim, Hindi, Jew or Christian.
Basically I think the issue is Muslim woman in the headlines. Because I'll tell you what, before there wern't a whole lot of stories about Islamic woman. That is, besided the stories about how their beaten, abused, mistreated, made capitives, stoned to death....ect. So I'm sorry that it's not 'all about gratifying Allah' but I'm happy that these woman are getting positive publicity for once.

And I'm all for wearing a hijab but have any of you studied woman's costume in the Middle East in the ancient times? It's different in different areas. In fact not all of them covered the face, or head, or dressed modestly. And by the way 'modest' is a relitive term. Modest compared to what? That's the question that needs to be answered.
And as far as I'm concerned these woman where nothing if not modest. Did you hear them bragging, shouting, telling the radical clerics of the Muslim world to shove off and that a woman could do anything a man did? No. You did not.
Modesty is key here.

It seems there is more outrage from our fellow Muslims when a woman does something amazing then when she's beaten or brutilized. Is anyone talking about how Egyptian woman where sexually abused a week or so back? By the govermental police? No we are arguing over hijab. It's almost so typical it makes me weep.

1) true, anyone climbing mt everest would almost be unrecognizable as man or woman b/c of all the layers

2) oh my gosh there are SO many things a muslim woman can do while observing standards of modesty

3) maybe the sisters who climbed the mountain (i'm so jealous!) were not cancer researchers, so they could not be the ones to develop a cure for cancer? for those who say that climbing a mountain is a useless pursuit, or vain because it's about conquering nature and personal satisfaction - try climbing. seriously.
my husband and i went rock climbing (yes, akram, it's me :) ), and yes, i wear hijab and i did it all fully covered, and the experience taught us more about the nature of faith in Allah, and the best way to approach living our lives, than anything in my life in recent months. especially when we got to the top and saw the view that Allah had in store for us. the physical challenge inherent in such activities often deepens or adds dimension to the spiritual experience. don't judge these sisters for doing something "personally gratifying" - they may have gotten recognition, naturally, for being the first muslim women to accomplish such an act, but you don't know why they did it or what they experienced in their hearts. such raw and humbling encounters with nature can be deeply profound and iman-strengthening. basit said time should be spent in understanding the meaning and objective of life - believe me, when you are hanging from a rope 4,000 feet up clinging to a rock face with only your faith and trust giving you the courage to keep moving up despite the fear of falling, and with Allah's magnificent earth rolling away below you in the cool mountain air, you've got a much better idea of the meaning and objective of life than sitting in your office in front of the computer for eight hours...

4) are we all forgetting who the first MUSLIM was who climbed a mountain to get a clearer view of life and to understand what Truth is?

Salaams, "Lorien"

That's great. I'm glad you guys had such a good experience. I'm glad you were able to do it in a way that made you feel both fulfilled and modest.

At the same time, I think it's important to remember that not everyone can live, exercise, work, socialize, ..., the same way, though. Some happen to be better equipped to handle a given challenge than others. The weak shouldn't be expected to live up to expectations of the strong.

What one person barely notices (weight, temperature or even negative social interactions) another might find a very heavy burden in the same circumstances. Perhaps a person less fit than you--or more sensitive to heat, ...--would've found rock climbing with hijab very difficult. Perhaps she would've gotten heat stroke, or been more likely to make dangerous mistake up there because of reduced visibility.

I'm just trying to point out that needs and circumstances vary greatly from person to person and from situation to situation. There is a widespread tendency in the community to impose one-size-fits-all solutions to problems, and that tendency is even more pronounced with women's dress (just take a look at the dour dress code at so many MSAs--looking at them, you'd think that all Muslims come from the Gulf).

I can think of one person we both know who finds hijab even in normal circumstances physically difficult. This isn't psychosomatic or because of her being unpracticing (quite to the contrary)--it's a heightened sensitivity to heat and physical pressure, a medical condition. To expect her to cover her head while rock climbing, much less mountain climbing, would be simply assinine.

I don't think the principles of Islam (whether for clothing or anything else) are supposed to be implemented blindly without awareness of circumstance or compassion for people's needs. That's inhuman (but, sadly, very common).

Wasalaam.

Mountain-climbing ROCKS!! Allahu Akbar!!!!!!!!!!

What a goofy and irritating discussion.

Who are we to act like we know these womens intentions?

And who cares if they climbed mountains? Is it really an issue?

Mountain-climbing is MUBAH ( neutral), strictly fiqh-y speaking. The act could only be considered makruh (not recommended) if the women felt they were risking their lives. But given the safety equipment they were using, and considering the liklihood that they did not enter into the act feeling unsafe, it would NOT be considered makruh. NOR haram (forbidden), NOR mustahab (recommended), NOR wajib (required).

Are we spending all of our time doing that which is wajib or mustahub? Hmmmmm.

Svend, please stop twisting everyone else's comments to further your agenda

Thank you, Lorien for the breath of fresh, mountain-clean air :)

You know, all of this reminds me of that old barrel of crabs analogy. One tries to get out but the others just keep pulling him down. They have the ability to form a chain and work together to achieve liberation. But they don't.

May Allah (SWT) guide us and cure us of our illnesses so that one day we may become the enlightened human beings He intended us to be.

An interesting analogy, Lote Tree, but I don't see how I'm one of those crabs, unless you just mean that I'm really crabby (which is quite possible--this situation can make you grouchy). As for my "twisting" of things for an agenda, I hope you're equally vigilant about agendas next time you hear the same old neo-Victorian claptrap about women at the mosque. The air's often thick with agendas when this topic comes up in the community, but some of of us only "agendas" from one side.

But perhaps you're right about one thing: This discussion has probably gone on long enough. The point of the article 's pretty simple, so either you get/agree with it, or you don't. Wasalaam.

People will climb mountains; men and women, Muslim men and Muslim women. If it makes you come closer to the divine than go for it but atleast to me it is a fruitless adventure unless it has some objective. What are the objectives of mountain climbing and how does it serve Allah? Should be the first questions Muslims should be asking themselves before traversing a mountain. If it serves Allah well than go ahead but if it doesn't than do something that will.

Salaams,